End Premades

Or idk people who like playing the game with friends and don’t think solo players should get a free pass. If you get a seperate queue you should get zero honor or rep.

You don’t think that won’t be hotfixed out?

I like doing both, thing is solo Q is broken in 2020 classic.

No, its already being touted as a way to hold tournaments by streamers, and large name guilds are enjoying it. I imagine they will capitalize on it rather then get rid of it. I don’t see any threads demanding it gets taken out. I see a lot of threads about fixing pug stomping premades though.

It sure has.

Like when we got day one free xfers- that destroyed Stalagg/Skeram/HS balance and ruined the servers.

Like layering- which ruined the economy by letting exploiters get a stranglehold on the most valuable commodities, as well as get full preBIS by layering inside dungeons, skipping hundreds of hours of clearing to late bosses by simply farming the one boss you need over and over and over.

Like the big AV changes- which brought a BG with relatively close win rates, 100s of games at a time- to barely a dozen matches, meaning a staggering 90% drop in players, as well as seeing win rates so bad players using mods were showing under 1% win rates over 100s of games played after the changes, and saw Horde queues rocket from under 30min to upwards of 4-5 hours according to Hordies on the forums.

The game has changed far too much- and it’s always horrible. The real question is- how is anyone still dense enough to think more and more changes is a good idea?

You’re bound for disappointment. Give Blizzard a few working days.

lol, no it wasnt. Most games ended in 6 min zergs to drek.

Because they made far fewer servers to start with and then mismanaged the xfers. Paid xferes have always been ok.

I’ll agree on that one.

I however enjoyed them breaking the AV exploit meta (yes, using a 3rd party system to exploit instant Qs in an exploit).

Also liked them changing the scoreboard to prevent scouting.
I’m not complaining that I can group with 4 other friends in AV.

You can argue that the ways they have handled the changes deemed necessary has been poor. It’s hard to argue that something wasn’t needed.


I don’t disagree. Those are a cool ways to have organized competition between top guilds and tournaments. 40v40 AV premades would be cool not gunna lie. But afaik wargames are essentially exhibition games and I assume would not reward honor. If they did you could just have guild form “loser groups” to farm honor all day uncontested.

That being said. Pug stomping has been and always will be the best way to farm honor. If solo queuers get a free pass then people who like to queue with friends will be the sole source of honor for rankers. How is that fair to them? If you want honor you brave the ranking premades like everyone else. It’s not “fair” but it’s classic pvp.

They just did it again, ruining more servers- EF, NW, Incend, etc… Maybe the first time it was them making mistakes, but now they’re using the community’s embracing of change to actively destroy servers.

If only someone had said if you give retail Blizz the go ahead as a community to make changes they’d abuse it. Oh wait, that’s literally what we have been saying since before launch.

No, maybe the ones with top tier Alliance premades did, which supposedly is a small portion of the community- but the average premades were just people on comms that could kick out AFKers- and the entire first months had plenty of Horde bragging about their >50% win rates.

Furthermore, we didn’t see a huge decline in players on either side, because matches were relatively fair and queue times stable. Once it went to 99% wins for Horde, something actually supported by mods that track that, there was a massive fall in participation.

Perhaps you enjoy that, as it is guaranteed easy wins every time you get an AV- but most people don’t look at a massive dip in participation, and a completely one sided win rate in a game and think that it’s fine.

Vanilla wasn’t a perfect game, it had a tonne of flaws to it. But as you yourself just demonstrated many people have different views on what those flaws were.

Horde may consider AV without 100% win rates to be a flaw, and will of course defend the changes forever- but I assure you most Alliance players didn’t want changes that’d leave a BG unplayable.

In this case, it benefited you- but what if they start making changes that don’t?

The pvp system in Vanilla was terrible, forcing players to devote months of their life to it, with people reporting 18hours/day for weeks straight since if you don’t you not only can’t progress, you would even go backwards.

It’s not only a bad system that can’t work with people with normal lives- it straight up is unhealthy on a literal basis.

We had half a year of just MC, a raid where everything is tank and spank.

The game has major flaws- but the point of this wasn’t to create a retail version of Vanilla- or at least, we didn’t think it was. If we’d known that was the goal I’m sure a lot of players wouldn’t have bothered.

So it’s easy to argue against changes- nobody can agree on what to change, and every change makes someone happy and someone else pissed off.

Shall we get rid of premade BGs and bring in solo queues for those that don’t want to find a group to get the top end pvp gear? Why not give us a solo raid queue for those that don’t want to find a group to get the top end pve gear? You know there’s a lot of people that want LFD/LFR.

I’m sure for every change you think is necessary- I can bring up a change you would never want to happen, yet someone else would adore.

And even if, somehow, a significant amount of players could agree on changing something- retail Blizzard cannot do it properly.

The problem with AV is they released the nerfed race to the finish line version while not accounting for the disparity in population. This led to two major problems. You had the horde who did not pve Zerg race because the queue times were too long. Then you had the alliance forming premades while the long queues wouldn’t allow the horde to do the same. This was not in issue in Vanilla and yet it needed to be addressed.

Solo queuers don’t get a free pass. You realize only one side wins in a pug vs pug game right? Just like in a premade vs premade game.

The only people getting a free pass are premades being matched against pugs.

No, they are mishandling the xfers. Saying its intentional because people are ok with changes has nothing to do with it.

Q times were about an hour long and the win rate for horde was well below 50%. I know I was there through it all unfortunately. Majority of games were a <10min loss. Some were longer but still a loss because one side was a premade which was unfair to the PUGs. There was the occasional win but they were few and far between.

Av is a dumpster fire, but no one is saying 100% horde wins isn’t broken either. I’m all for some minor fixes to AV. The change did not benefit me in anyway. I rarely Q for AV anymore after I got exalted on 2 characters.

Agreed. However the toxic nature of that exact system is causing a modern problem in the modern version of this game. A lot of people have noticed this for months and finally are getting fed up with it.

Sure, but were talking about a change a good chunk of the playerbase seems to be for. Not just a few people. Just like breaking the AV meta and stopping people from Q dodging WSG. Both were supported by large parts of the community.

If we’re talking ‘premades’ here- then how is it a large chunk of the community that wants it?

According to Alliance and Horde pugs alike in WSG/AB, 90% of their matches are against premades.

Sorry, but if 90% of players are premading, seems like they’re the majority there. If truly the majority of players did not want premades, then the majority of matches would be pugs v pugs with the occassional premade stomp, hardly a problem.

Then there should be no problem simply matching pugs vs pugs and premades vs premades. If there’s so many premades it won’t impact their queue times and pugs would be mroe than willing to wait longer for a decent game.

Can we get LFD/LFR while we’re at it? I’m on a server with like 50 alliance total at peak times and haven’t had a dungeon run in months.

And hey, why should we have to group in an MMO? It won’t effect raiders at all if we get LFR.

Not relevant in a discussion about BG’s.

Look I’m not going to spend more time today arguing for or against some changes. I think solo Q right now is pretty unbearable. I sometimes premade, and I do find it very fun. Not the PUG stomping part but the premade vs premade matches.

I’ve always been pretty no changes, but this is a modern version of the game. It is going to have some modern problems that were not really an issue in vanilla. We are different now and so is the game. If blizzard does some minor adjustments its not a big deal. As long as those adjustments dont change some core values of vanilla. There can be some changes that still kinda fall in line with #nochanges if that makes sense.

I have no real evidence besides my own experience, but when I premade you get more games vs pugs than premades. When you pug you get more games vs premades than pugs. I think that is because premades stomp a pug in less than 10min usually, and they are right back in the Q. Where as when a pug faces another pug its often a 30min game. I doubt there are more premades than pugs.

As in, you see more premades because they are playing more games when often times thier games are only lasting 8min. Makes sense? Again I dont really know, just my own experience. I hope you guys hash it out here. This thread is a long read.

It’s entirely relevant- you want to bring an end to a need for endgame content in an mmo to require grouping to do well.

Something they did for both pvers and pvpers later on, just not yet. But if we’re going to give solo queuers the participation prize of maxed out epics, why not do the same for solo pvers?

Except it’s not relevant, dungeons and raids are encounters vs a static NPC. Not a competitive pvp match that has a match making system. Completely different situation.

In Vanilla battlegrounds were very casual friendly, anyone could solo queue and more often than not would face up against another pug. This wasn’t always the case, it was largely dependant on what server you were in. The problem in Classic is crossrealm bgs set the meta across the board regardless of the servers. This a huge change from vanilla where no one had been able to obtain Highwarlord exclusively doing xrealm bgs.

AV is bad because there’s no reason for alliance rankers, solo or groups, to run it. It’s just rep farmers at this point. Unless there’s a reason for alliance to go there other than rep idk how you fix it.

Same way people got sick of phase 2. Nobody enjoys being farmed, it sucks. But the honor system is all about farming other players like NPC’S all day for months on end. Rankers have honor to farm, therefore someone will be farmed, there’s no way around it. If solo queuers get their own queue that just means small groups and the guild “premades” will be the honor fodder for rankers, ruining their experience. There’s no way to make pvp “fair” in a system that is inherently unfair. That’s why the honor system was scrapped in TBC, and the most fair thing is for everyone to be honor fodder for rankers unfortunately

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