I did address that, you just didn’t like the answer.
People aren’t held hostage playing WoW, they are free to log out or do whatever they want in game. Someone having a character with a tank/heal spec is no guarantee they’ll use it.
That doesn’t answer the question at all. Try again please 
I guess I’ll rephrase it to a yes or no question - with dual spec, does a player exist that uses the feature to switch out of a tanking spec?
It’s a question with a very obvious answer.
My understanding of your last response is that you believe the answer is no because every player that meets that criteria is currently logging off instead of playing the game. Is that accurate?
Let me put it like this If you are not a tank at the moment You can’t get in 2 groups because you can’t find a tank but if you are a class that can tank but that is not your main speck.
If I tell you Is depending on your class of course if you have to go get a whole separate gear set and per set and pay 100 gold just to try something different.
To see if you like it You’re going to be less incentivized to do so if the barrier to entry is that big however If we take away that 100 gold respect You’re Lessing the barrier to entry enough at least for people to consider it that’s what I’m saying.
You’re talking to me like I don’t already understand this.
I recognize that there will be an incentive to switch to a tank spec when you remove the barrier. What I’m saying is that exact same incentive will exist to switch from tank spec. The barrier is for changing specs in general, not just for changing into a tank spec.
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No that is not accurate. If that player switches out of their tank spec it’s because they weren’t going to be tanking anyways. Maybe they log out, maybe they do something else in game, either way they aren’t tanking and that’s not because of dual spec it’s because they aren’t in the mood to tank.
So not only has lack of dual spec not forced them to tank it’s also hindering others who might have been willing to tank from doing so. In short a lose lose for everyone.
I think I recognize where your blind spot is.
You’re assuming that the player switching out of tank spec is doing so because they dislike tanking dungeons. That’s not necessarily the case. Maybe they enjoy tanking dungeons just fine, but they would use dual spec to add some variety to their gameplay.
They have 3 hours to play, they are perfectly content to tank 2 dungeons in those 3 hours, but when dual spec is added they might decide they would rather tank 1 dungeon and then do their dailies after.
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Yes to dual spec, and please for the love of your playerbase, add xserver LFD or merge all servers. Playing with randos is better than not playing at all.
If they want more variety in their game play(or more accurately their for fun leisure activity) they’ll take it regardless of dual spec, which is what you don’t seem to understand.
Most people don’t use a single character in WoW as their sole form of entertainment.
Maybe they log out and play a different game or watch a movie, maybe they play an alt, maybe they just do those dailies in a crummy solo spec. Regardless the reason is because they didn’t want to tank any more, not that they had dual spec.
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I recognize that the type of person you’re describing exists - I’m talking about a different type of person.
It just doesn’t suffice to say that the sheer existence of your kind of player renders the one I’m describing impossible. There are all kinds of people and players out there that do things for all kinds of different reasons.
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So what you’re asking for essentially is one million percent proof that if they put dual spec in.
Is that that wool make the tank shortage go away That’s what you’re saying OK one And I specifically said help not fit’s up not fix.
And I say this as a Paladin tank by the way You And I can both go around and around and around with this but here’s the thing.
Can I give you a 100% reason why people are all the sudden going to change their minds and say oh I want to play a tank now because dual specs in the game no the game no However I understand human nature enough to know.
If you lower the barrier to entry People are more likely to try it Because you know if you spend an hour and a 1/2 looking for a tank for a dungeon.
If you have duel speck You’re more likely to look and say oh Hey you know what I could have a tank off speck.
On top of that Is this awesome would give tanks and healers the ability to have a farming or leveling speck speaking from again a tank
And healer’s perspective because I talk to a lot of healers And most of them say yeah I would love to at least try DPS but I’m not going to pay a 100 gold.
And get a gear set together just to try something It’s kind of like when your car shopping you don’t buy the 1st car you see.
Not the entirely same thing but a very similar concept Because here’s the thing can I prove that people Try tanking If their class allows them to if duel speck comes in the game no.
But the very same is very true for you you cannot prove That people won’t So both our arguments have just as much of a likelihood to happen.
It’s the same logic You can say well people won’t play what they don’t want to play however I would also make an argument Have you ever thought about the concept that maybe they don’t want to try it because they’re such a barrier?
It’s the same thing with pvp Is participation how big is that barrier to entry ha and because of that huge barrier to entry the participation has gone down dramatically.
This same thing so yeah You can’t prove that dull speck wouldn’t Because I personally can tell you the reason I don’t respect for retribution to even try pvp is for that reason.
Yeah it does look like some fun but I’m also not going to pay a 100 gold every signal time I wanna do it.
Getting a gear set together This is enough barrier to entry plain and simple
I think you and I are on the same page here, for the most part. Think about all the players that want to do all the different things in the game.
So you gave an example:
pve prot pally → pvp retribution
Here’s just some random others:
pvp arms warrior → pve fury
pve survival hunter → pve beast mastery
pve resto druid → pve feral
pvp restokin druid → pve resto
I’ll spare you but you can imagine every combination, in all kinds of different directions.
You’ll notice, there’s no real force putting tank/healer roles on the right side of that. It’s just whatever people want to do. Right now, those arrows are associated with the respec barrier.
Dual spec has no particular reason why it would suddenly put tank/healer roles on the right side. All it should do is remove the barrier on those arrows so that players are more often switching between roles that they want to do.
What I’ve observed is that pro dual-spec posters are really focusing on some specific cases where players are switching to pve tank or pve healer roles. Because of that, they are making a faulty conclusion that dual spec will create more tanks or more healers.
My whole point is that if you consider all of the cases, all of the different arrows, all the ways people can change roles, not just the ones that support your assertion, you should be able to quickly recognize that dual spec may not have the impact that you expect it to.
It can still be a good feature, and you are still fully justified in wanting it, but I think it’s inaccurate to say that dual spec will create more tank players. And I can go into much deeper detail than this as to why.
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I see what you’re trying to get at just because people have The Choice to all of a sudden to be able to make a tank doesn’t mean people well it committedly you are correct.
However At that point its supply and demand right Because if I’m let’s say for the sick of argument I was ret And Dual spec was in the game.
And I will absolutely say this I saw this happen in wrath when it was implemented A lot of people including myself.
Is tried at those specs we hadn’t played before now one I am very aware that the game was at a very different spot in wrath but hear me out.
The philosophy is the same Not everybody is going to do it but there’s a lot of people especially if you’re having problems finding problems finding a tank or healer.
And your mainspect DPS It’s all the sun that tanking off speck looks a lot more appealing why because inadvertently the pain how much you do get into dungeons.
There’s always going to be those pieces people don’t want at some point I mean heck I can tell you I’m a maintank in a carousel run and we gave kings defender to a paladin.
Just because nobody else needed it Now this does depend on your situation of course But over all It can’t be denied that it wouldn’t at least help the taking situation a little because here’s the facts.
If you can’t get a group as DPS because there’s such an abundance you’re going to look at the other roles that your class can fulfill.
Because if you’re constantly looking for groups for a tank for an over an hour And you want to get your daily done or whatever done.
And you’re not finding a tank And there’s dual speck in the game and you have a tanking set together all the sun that’s gonna look a lot more appealing to you.
I mean heck I know people That literally have to Respect once a week they do their dailies and heroics as a prot Warrior.
And for raid they’re a fury DPS And yeah that is a one person situation but it’s not an unlikely situation to have because here’s the other half of this.
How many tanks do you need for a raid? Generally 2 to 4 And as people get geared that numbers going to go down.
So at the beginning you need a lot of tanks for dungeons but endgame game it’s hard to find a spot as a tank.
Not for a Places like kaera But any of the 25 mans That’s going to be tough to find a spot unless it’s a pug.
Because the reality is if you’re in any type of Guild in any way Generally the 1st thing that you want to establish is the tanks.
Because the reality is The stronger your tanks are the easier the runs go That’s not me bragging that’s just a fact So it’s bad on both ends you need a ton of tanks for dungeon but the number of tanks you need for raids drops off a lot.
So no Dual speck doesn’t Directly make people want to tank however the supply and demand in lesser of a barrier to entry most certainly incentivizes it.
That’s what I’m saying
One reason people might have a tank or healer spec they didn’t have before is that it’s easier to find groups as a tank or healer. That’s one reason I had a resto spec on my druid when dual spec was added. I didn’t do many dungeons as a dps druid but I healed a couple most days I played after it was added. But that didn’t just mean I did more dungeons. 3 dps that couldn’t find a healer did that dungeon with me.
I’m glad you brought that up - so the shortage of tanks causes tanks to more easily find groups, and that is an incentive to be a tank. That is a completely true concept. It’s one of the reasons you’ll see some of these:
non-tank → pve tank
And right now, there’s a respec barrier between those two, and after dual spec that barrier will be lessened. Enough that many players will go ahead and make the transition.
But it’s only one piece of data. There are also incentives to be a dps player - it’s easier to solo, many people seem to find it more fun in group contexts, it’s less stressful, you don’t have to know as many mechanics, so you’ll also see this arrow:
pve tank → pve damage dealer
And by the way, after dual spec gets added, you’ll have the same arrow in reverse;
pve damager dealer → pve tank
Players are more flexible, they can play either spec and readily switch between the two, but you’ll also have:
pve tank → non-tank (this is the reverse of the first one I posted)
If the dual spec side wins out and it gets added in TBCC, I don’t want it to be added with the understanding that it will create more tanks, because that could deprive us of a feature that actually does. Imagine we get dual spec, and some additional tank incentive - something that actually creates more tank players. Isn’t that better than just dual spec?
I’ll remind everyone, I don’t personally want dual spec.
That’s something I addressed above, it’s just one incentive to play a certain way but there are also incentives to play other ways. The most important idea is that dual spec doesn’t change the nature of these incentives. The main incentive dual spec adds to the game is just to change roles in general. tank → dps ; dps → tank - it’s all fair game.
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It’s not all fair game. While dual spec adds the ability to change specs easily so you can play more parts of the game there are other incentives that influence choices. If you want to switch from your tanking or healing spec to a dps pve or pvp spec you’re going to need dps gear. One incentive to tank or heal dungeons is you’ll get that gear much more quickly by tanking or healing and rolling on gear for your off spec than trying to find a dungeon in your dps spec.
Instantly stopped reading because you cant type. 2 who cares about the trash podcast you listened to? So you watched a podcast that follows your ideas, IMAGINE WHY YOU AGREE LOL. no 1 cares about content creators on classic wow, most content creators give the absolute worst suggestions. so no keep dual spec out.have fun in wotlk
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I guess the idea is that dual spec creates an incentive to gear a second spec (which I agree with) which places more weight on the incentive to play a role that can gear that spec quickly?
That’s an interesting idea, I’ll admit I didn’t consider that.
My anecdotal case is that when I leveled to 70 I played ret just because my dungeon group already had a tank and healer, but my main spec was always holy, and I collected tanking gear. My plan was to tank dungeons to gear my healing spec because it should be faster.
So my intuition tells me that you’re describing the same incentive that I felt to play a tank role to gear my primary spec.
OK here’s the thing with this it may only be technically one piece of data but it’s a piece of data that’s factual as far as argument that a lot of people just like being a damaged dealer and single player content however.
Let’s be honest here It’s limited What is the single player content in tbcc Is realistically OK leveling, BGS, And farming.
And technically Daley’s situationally because there’s many dailies that you can’t do Without a group of people.
And the same thing goes with questing So you can’t even really call that solo content because there are certain pieces of it you can’t get done unless you’re in a Is group
So even if it’s less stressful at some point you’re just going to be done Now the same case is with group content as well but the difference is.
There’s a lot more of it On top of that the biggest scale content is like it or not raids Some people find it more fun to play solo that’s completely fine.
But they also have to have it in the back of their head you’re limited Once you hit 70 essentially you’re kind of done.
You’ve got dailies and that’s it Maybe some pvp But even to excel at that you still need groups of people.
So again I mean I just don’t see how this really matters to your argument I mean sure you could make an argument that the idea of having dual specs encourages people to grow up more I guess.
But dual speck doesn’t exactly take that content away from solo players either if anything doesn’t that give them more to do because it gives the more options.
So again And again I didn’t say That dual speck would fix the tank shortage I never make that claim nor will I ever.
But it cannot be denied It certainly would help it Because does it directly make people all the sun want to Tank.
No but it lowers that barrier to entry and I would also make the argument that sometimes that barrier to entry is what holds people back.
Because when wrath Implemented dull speck I can tell you Is there were a lot of people that did try tanking and healing for the 1st time I know because I knew quite a few of them included myself.
So as I said Does it specifically make tanks no Is does it lower the barrier to entry indirectly and synthesizing people is incentivizing people yes.
And you can’t tell me Of the people we have playing tbcc There’s not a single person that doesn’t play a damage dealer that’s a Druid, Warrior, paladin.
This that doesn’t look at that 100 gold Is respect cost and go I’d really like to try taking I really would but.
I don’t wanna do something I may or may not like and feel like I have wasted under the gold for no reason.
You also can’t tell me there isn’t people with entire off tanking sat That just doesn’t look at it and go I’d like to just do it for fun but again paying a 100 gold every single time it’s just too much.
That’s what I would say
Pve Arms dps->pve Prot warr for 5 mans and meme runs
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And a hint of the agenda comes out.