Dual spec please

[Horace-remulos]

@Ziryus-pagle

For starters dual spec is very low impact. And the odds that very few people would use it is pretty low considering how many used it in Wrath and Cata, so low impact high gain for the people who would use it.

See, the business case has changed now. It is to increase participation without impacting the game. Which introduces a subjective level of how much impact/risk is acceptable to achieve that change. Which cannot be strictly right or wrong because it’s opinion at the end of the day.

[Riger-arugal]

@Horace-remulos

The only thing you consistently agree on is Dual Spec.

Which is fine. It’s not a political party, we’re a bunch of random gamers with different preferences. This is not ideological.

[Feywaif-atiesh]

@Horace-remulos

The only thing you consistently agree on is Dual Spec.

Yes, we don’t all agree on every possible change that could be added to the game because many of us consider each change individually. But we consistently agree on most of the reasons we think dual spec would be good for the game.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Riger-arugal

@Ziryus-pagle

I mean people have pretty clearly stated what they think dual spec would help with, namely increased participation in different areas of content. Which is certainly an important goal for an MMO.

But not how or why. Anyone can make assertions. I think giving me 1000 wow gold a week will obviously end world hunger …

That’s my issue - I don’t agree that the asserted benefits are true. I don’t see any evidence that the results you claim will actually happen.

I think the results will be very different but like you I can’t prove that. This is the impasse - you reckon one thing and I reckon something very different - neither of us can prove it - and no, WoTLK ain’t proof.

What are you talking about, people have explained in great deal why being able to switch specs freely would directly lead to them both putting more play time in and doing more kinds of content.

Just because YOU wouldn’t doesn’t mean that others would behave the same as you do.

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Redheadchild-kul-tiras

But it’s a continues cost that you pay. And you said THAT was the issue. Doesn’t matter where the gold goes, you lose the gold, it’s a cost. And if you buy it from the AH, a portion of that gold does go away forever from the game. Even if you buy it from CoD, gold disappears.

Your arguments are so bad lol.

Unless they’re going to remove raid consumables altogether (and thus the skill/gameplay involved with their use, such as keeping track of your pot cooldown, using it during the correct raid buff window etc, removal of which is obviously a Bad Thing), or make them free (thus removing professions, nodes, gathering and crafting - all of which people enjoy, and which I respect that they enjoy), then quite clearly that aspect of the game isn’t going anywhere, nor should it.

As long as consumables are gathering and crafting based, players will need an incentive to do the gathering and crafting, which is gold. That’s fine.

I’m not over the moon about farming either the gold or the mats for consumes, but it is 100% an integral part of the game.

Stop trying to twist my words as well thanks.

[Horace-remulos]

@Feywaif-atiesh

Yes, we don’t all agree on every possible change that could be added to the game… But we consistently agree on most of the reasons we think dual spec would be good for the game.

So it sounds like it is not disingenuous to (over)simplify your argument to “majority rule”?

[Ziryus-pagle]

Dual spec is pretty simple so yes it’s very easy to simplify why people want it.

[Intolerable-atiesh]

I think it is, I don’t think it takes a majority to encourage the developers to consider good ideas.

[Redheadchild-kul-tiras (Redheadchild)]

Story hasn’t changed.

I was asked about my play time in December. During the holiday season. I gave it for that time and explained I don’t consider long afk crafting sessions as part of that play time. Holiday season is over. I now play more again, but for when I was asked, the the answer was accurate for that time, because I was playing less during the holiday season.

You can look at the dates of the conversation if you want proof of this.

@Redheadchild-kul-tiras

I play less than 10 hours a week right now, including raid nights, pvp, farming, alt leveling, and helping others.

For the weeks of the holiday season I was playing a lot less. I’m not denying that. But notice I said right now

That’s because I was giving my current play times based on how much I was playing at that time. Which was around the middle of December.

Tell me, do you consider the middle of December part of the holiday season? Do you play less at that time because you are busy with everything the holiday season brings with it?

My story hasn’t changed. People keep taking it out of context to try and get “gotcha” moments.

[Horace-remulos]

@Intolerable-atiesh

good ideas.

They’re not demonstrably “good”. That is subjective.

[Feywaif-atiesh]

@Horace-remulos

it is not disingenuous to (over)simplify your argument to “majority rule”?

I don’t think this argument, which is one of many, can be simplified to “majority rule.”

@Feywaif-atiesh

@Feywaif-bloodsail-buccaneers

There are several reasons for the tank and healer shortage. Part of it is some people don’t find it fun. There’s not much that can be done about that. But there are people who like to tank or heal and some who don’t find it so onerous that they would never consider it. They are forced to choose one spec to heal or tank dungeons which make the rest of the game no fun for them some that would tank decide to spec dps so they can have fun playing the whole game.

I made that choice. I specced dps on my druid because questing, farming, and pvp weren’t fun with a resto spec. As soon as there was dual spec in wrath I added a resto spec and started to heal in dungeons. There are other classes that heal and tank that did the same and would do the same in BC. It wouldn’t solve the shortage but it would make it less severe

There are many people who choose to not do certain parts of the game because they find earning the gold for respecs to be unfun. You can say it’s not wanting to play the game or use gold but fun is subjective. In an mmo the more players on line is good for the game. Some would use their off spec to pvp. That would be good for the game given the low numbers of people doing arena. Others may have specced for dps because they find questing and farming in a tank or healing spec to be unfun. Again, fun is subjective. Some dps players will off spec to tank or heal. That’s good for the game given the shortage of tanks and healers.

[Horace-remulos]

Then what is your argument? You seem to be avoiding that question.

[Intolerable-atiesh]

Ideas that benefit players with no tangible downsides are typically good ones.

[Horace-remulos]

@Intolerable-atiesh

no tangible downsides

Allied Races have no tangible downsides, assuming there are no stat/racial changes. Do you agree?

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Horace-remulos

@Feywaif-atiesh

There’s not a lot of difference between those who favor adding it.

Zyrius agreed that he is open to other QoL changes from Retail, so long as they are optional.

Egwyn called LFR - which you support - “dumb stuff”.

The only thing you consistently agree on is Dual Spec.

How is that anything other than majority rule?

I, err, think it’s another case of that missing reading comprehension again. Maybe Feywaif just assumed you’d understand what his abbreviated form of “not a lot of difference between those who favor adding it” meant.

I can pretty safely say he meant “there is not a lot of variation among the proponents of dual spec in terms of both the reasons we think it (dual spec) should be added, or how we think it (dual spec) should be implemented”.

He’s not saying we all have the same hair color and eye color or whatnot, lmao.

[Feywaif-atiesh]

@Horace-remulos

Then what is your argument? You seem to be avoiding that question

Can you actually read?

@Feywaif-atiesh

@Feywaif-bloodsail-buccaneers

There are several reasons for the tank and healer shortage. Part of it is some people don’t find it fun. There’s not much that can be done about that. But there are people who like to tank or heal and some who don’t find it so onerous that they would never consider it. They are forced to choose one spec to heal or tank dungeons which make the rest of the game no fun for them some that would tank decide to spec dps so they can have fun playing the whole game.

I made that choice. I specced dps on my druid because questing, farming, and pvp weren’t fun with a resto spec. As soon as there was dual spec in wrath I added a resto spec and started to heal in dungeons. There are other classes that heal and tank that did the same and would do the same in BC. It wouldn’t solve the shortage but it would make it less severe

There are many people who choose to not do certain parts of the game because they find earning the gold for respecs to be unfun. You can say it’s not wanting to play the game or use gold but fun is subjective. In an mmo the more players on line is good for the game. Some would use their off spec to pvp. That would be good for the game given the low numbers of people doing arena. Others may have specced for dps because they find questing and farming in a tank or healing spec to be unfun. Again, fun is subjective. Some dps players will off spec to tank or heal. That’s good for the game given the shortage of tanks and healers.

[Intolerable-atiesh]

I’m sorry but I’m out of the loop, what do you mean by allied races?

[Egwyn-arugal]

@Horace-remulos

Then what is your argument? You seem to be avoiding that question.

fwiw i literally gave you a user story format about the “business case” for dual spec, which you seem to have not noticed (possibly because of RHC’s weird derailment)

[Horace-remulos]

Okay, if your argument is

@Feywaif-atiesh

But there are people who like to tank or heal and some who don’t find it so onerous that they would never consider it.

Then:

@Horace-remulos

Think of it like a Venn diagram. You have people who like to heal/tank. Then you have a subset of people who play classes that heal/tank. Then you have a subset of players who enjoy healing/tanking over solo content and PvP. Then you have a subset of players within that who want to heal/tank but feel restricted from doing so due to having only one spec.

That is a very small proportion of users who will be affected. If the business case is to “increase participation” there are several different solutions which could achieve that more easily. Cross-realm LFG. Cross-faction dungeons. You name it. So why pick Dual Spec specifically as the solution?

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Horace-remulos

@Intolerable-atiesh

no tangible downsides

Allied Races have no tangible downsides, assuming there are no stat/racial changes. Do you agree?

Aesthetics are important, but sure if there was a toggle for people who don’t want to see them why not.