Dismissive, and reductive. Intentionally, because the entire concept of #nochanges is by its definition dismissive and reductive.
Iām just yet to see anyone making a #nochanges claim in these recent threads. Opposing one change != to opposing all change. Maybe Iām missing it - but all of the current posters have mentioned changes they would find acceptable.
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You kinda bring that on yourself though because no one in this thread is strictly #nochanges. Its a label, not an admission.
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Opposing DS doesnāt make me #nochanges anymore than you supporting DS makes you a retail zoomer.
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Itās a label that some of the more unscrupulous posters have tagged the ānoā case with for rhetorical purposes - it carries very little actual meaning or value.
No-one here is claiming that there should be no changes to TBC classic. The argument is around what changes are acceptable and fit within Blizzards stated scope for change in the TBC classic game.
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The antithesis to nochanges is allchanges and you have to be an allchanges kind of person to suggest dual specs implementation for the purposes of personal satisfaction and think every other change validates you.
So if thats their stance, and it is, then theyāre labels cant mean all that much. Water off a ducks back. This is somechanges people and allchanges people having a row - nothing to do with nochanges.
Though when you press some of those I think youāre referring to on changes - presenting options either more toward retail or more restrictive - they donāt support those changes. And this is the problem with the discussion - thereās no heuristic being applied to determine what changes fit and what changes do not.
The people you are claiming are #allchanges are really for only those changes they personally like - utterly subjective - thereās no room for debate or discussion in that. They use the argument that some changes means all changes should be accepted - except for those they personally donāt like. Itās actually pretty arbitrary.
And ātheyā is not all the pro Dual speccers, itās a small handful. Many have offered good but in my view flawed reasons to add it. I mean if it really did result in a lot more players participating in a lot more content in and out of instances then I think Iād find it compelling. Iām not at all convinced that it would though. In fact more people would āRaid logā. In my view - thereād be no reason to venture outside of instanced content if you added it. Thereās barely any reason to now - and this would make it worse.
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Then they realized that people were waiting more than an hour to find a group to do a dungeon. When they realized that all their time spent creating dungeons was being wasted since they werenāt being done much they made changes to incentivize people to do them. In BC you had to do dungeons to get attuned and for rep. But then they noticed that even with the incentives many people couldnāt find groups. So they added dual spec and the lfd.
The problem with the discussion is they cant make a case for dual specs in any legitimate capacity because there is nothing that legitimizes their apathy and greed. Their way around this impasse is to form a completely biased and unsubstantiated opinion that states one change opens the door for every other change and they can dictate what those changes are. Thats allchanges - not like theyāve even noticed.
The larger problem is Im a part of a player base full of demoralized prison inmates who cant sell out fast enough.
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That has nothing to do with dual spec. Every change made would be objected to if it was a cash shop item. If the pally seal change could only be purchased in a cash shop most would be against it. If HvH bgās was a cash shop item people would be against it. Many are against the cash shop, period.
Which raises the question posed by Riger: where is the line of what constitutes an appropriate level of change for a player made problem?
Instead of introducing Dual Spec, why not introduce Retail-esque LFD that teleports you instantly to the dungeon? If the business need is making it easier to access content, that is certainly another solution.
Yeah I mean this is why I hated Wrath - especially around ToC, it became a loot pinata. There was no fun in it - it was like a daily grind job where you did these charmless tasks to get purple pixels you knew wouldnāt matter in a few months. The RP and the sense of designing your own character and having a community were all but gone by that point.
Iād like to avoid that in TBC classic though weāre pretty close to that now as it is - mainly due to stupid content gating at the start I think.
Iām not anti change but itās going to be a hard sell convincing me that making TBC more like Wrath is the way forward when in my view Wrath was trash. God, Iād rate Cata and Pandaran above it even. It had two genuine raids which were artificially extended through hard mode challenges (I liked that feature btw). And loads of boring dailies. Most of the hurdles were removed so it became a sort of hamster wheel youād run in every day. Ickā¦
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Iām fine with adding the lfd too.
Of course you are, because you are allchanges.
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Thatās fair. Though I donāt really have anything to say to that because itās all just personal perspective at the end of the day.
Not everybody who wants Dual Spec necessarily wants LFD. And theyāll be having this exact same conversation a few months after if Dual Spec were to be introduced. And by then, itās anyoneās guess whether the changes were actually āgoodā for the game or not.
If QoL is all weāre going by then Retail must be objectively better than Classic.
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Its funny to read that because its right around that time in Wrath that the larger group of people I had been playing with since vanilla had really started to change in a way it never had before. Lots of veterans just falling by the wayside.
I made it like 2/3 of the way in and then canceled my account the day 4.0 dropped at the end. Arthas is probably the only redeeming thing about Wrath for me, being a fan of the old RTS warcraft games. After that and pvp, I got nothing nice to say about it.
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There are a lot of similarities for why people want them, itās obviously a huge QOL improvement for the people who want it. The big difference which is what makes same faction BGās a much bigger deviation is that there is no opt of them, every BG is now same faction.
Dual spec while being a huge QOL improvement is also a negligible change for those who donāt. Like theyāll see the option to buy it on trainers and maybe occasionally see someone use it, thatās it. Same faction BGās impact every one who plays BGās.
The reason you see it brought up is because when people canāt make an actual argument in terms of game play they often resort to just saying thatās not how it was originally. So #nochanges with the scope of the current thread would be accurate.
To be clear, I lump #nomorechanges into the #nochanges crowd, and Iāve not been convinced that anyone who is #nomorechanges wasnāt originally #nochanges.
#somechanges is definitely different than #allchanges, and I for one believe there should be an open discussion, without the dismissive and reductive comments that are related in any way towards āfaithful recreationā or whatever - because that is literally #nochanges, which blizzard has already backtracked on by making changes.
You can be insulted all you want, but you wear your actual colors proudly by shutting down discussion instead of attempting to find middle ground. There is no middle ground with #nomorechanges people, by definition because they are closing the door on changes.
I donāt know how much clearer it can be.
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Each personās experience is different and each server is different. I had the strongest community in wrath. Iāve often argued that the lfd wasnāt a problem in wrath because the community was so strong. I almost never joined the lfd alone. Iād go to my guild and my friend list and after we had a group of 3 or 4 joined the lfd for the last couple players. Imo the community was far stronger in wrath then it is in classic vanilla and BC. Most I guess because of the changes in the players or because we are playing a 15 year old game