Question posed to those for dual spec:
Is there such thing as too much change? If so, whereabouts do you draw the line? Is there a line at all?
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Of course there is, but unlike the people opposed to dual spec we can explain why in actual gameplay terms why something would be bad.
Dual spec doesn’t change any core mechanics, no abilities are different, no mobs act differently, no zones are different, nor does it even have any impact on someone if they choose not to use it. As such given that it would be a very nice feature for a lot of people there’s no reason not to.
So what/where is it? Also…
You think this is off-limits? So how are your feelings about the feral energy change?
What about the regen buff tick grace period?
How about the new mage haste cap?
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I answered that, does it change the game world, does it change any abilities or mobs? Is it so optional I can completely ignore it?
So for you, the only thing that would make TBCC “not-TBC” is if they changed any of the original TBC spells/abilities, the outland continent environmentally, or how any of the mobs work mechanically?
So you’re not against LFR/LFD?
You wouldn’t be against pet battling?
You wouldn’t be against Barbershops? World quests? New quests in general? None of those things affect your conditions so…additionally-
These 3 things:
…change core game mechanics for several classes that are not optional when playing those classes affected.
How do you feel about them?
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Because the way we look at it is If something’s good it’s good If something is bad it’s bad Is in until a period of time or something.
Or is supposed to be in the game but we know it’s bad doesn’t mean it should still stay in just because it would spin their back then.
spell batching is a Is really good example Or the classic pvp system Or duel spack Is and/or same faction battlegrounds.
Whether these things are Is in the game or at the game a certain period of time it doesn’t mean they were good Or bad That’s how we see it if it’s good put it in if it’s bad get it out.
Those would be more general guidelines as I try to avoid taking hard black and white stances on things, unlike some people 
But to answer those, LFD/LFR same server with no difficulty changes/lockout changes? I think it would be hilarious to watch that crash and burn.
Pet battling? You mean that thing that’s completely isolated in it’s own little mini game? Sure why not, would be weird though as that’s highly tied into account bound things and there just aren’t that many pets in the game yet.
We have world quests, new quests actually would change the game world, but then I don’t really have an issue with the bonus quests for BG victories. And of course see above, highly ignorable.
As for the others, see above, if they change an energy tick kind of a meh area, it’s not like it’s a new spell or anything.
It really sounds to me like your idea of where the line is…isn’t very specific or valuable to a discussion on what features either cross or don’t cross that line…
You’re against core mechanic changes, but not some of them.
You’re not against LFD/LFR, you just think it would fail?
I’m sorry but I’m not sure that you can be a very good calibration default for what should and shouldn’t be added…
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So for you, the only thing that would make TBCC “not-TBC” is if they changed any of the original TBC spells/abilities, the outland continent environmentally, or how any of the mobs work mechanically?
So you’re not against LFR/LFD?
Okay on the Is topic of LFR/LFD Is what I will say is that Is is there an actual solid argument for it technically.
That doesn’t mean I want it in the game Is quite honestly what I would like to see is the group finder tool in legin.
Is this still a social game ? The short answer is yes or no Is is it a social game when the only social interaction with players that we really have at least in Is group content.
Is looking for a group Is how much player action do you have in a dungeon Is unless something goes wrong.
Is is it spamming in Is looking for group chat ?
I mean I don’t know about the rest of you and I am a tank mind you So when I get a dungeon group If I don’t know something I’m going to say it.
But there are a lot of people I think that are still just afraid to Or just don’t want to listen
Is does your reputation on a server still matter Again this is yes Or no Is this depends on the size of the server.
If you only have a choice of one DPS whether hes bad or not Hey guess what You have to go with them.
No some people will listen But most don’t No I am talking about pugs of course Are there some pugs that are really sociable that you can make friends.
Oh yeah there are some people but it’s not the majority You could also make an argument at least for the lower tear of a raids.
Is could a complete pug get that done Yeah assuming everybody has somewhat Knows what they’re doing.
But then again if we start implement etho system we start taking away what a Guild is needed for.
Which is why I’m not for it But that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge Is solid arguments for it.
however at the end of the day Is the bad far outweighs the good now we’ve seen how that plays out.
It’s the same argument with dual spec We’ve seen the good it can do And the overall consequences of that feature are positive.
Which is why the 2 are different On top of that those 2 features affect very different things.
one literally takes away a core aspect of the game Is and the other allows player flexibility and choice.
So that’s why it’s different
You don’t like the answer because it’s no a black and white answer, my opinion favors topic by topic, whereas you want to lock it into a formula.
I gave you areas of the game I would look at not as hard does it impact that but as areas of how much does it impact that and in what way.
In the case of dual spec? If I choose to ignore it it has virtually no impact on my game play, as such since it would help quite a lot of people great.
I mean it has nothing to do with what I like or don’t like. I’m not even talking about what features I want in or don’t.
You just don’t have a very good idea of where the(your) line is, and are thus a bad foundation to take any sort of input from on how much is too much.
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When you make a game change it impacts and changes the game for everyone regardless of who uses it and who doesn’t. In more ways than one.
You’re pretty much saying that TBC is two different games depending on whether you use dual specs or not and your choices have zero impact. Um yeah, okay.
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And I told you what I base my opinion on, I don’t make black and white decisions because not all changes are equal.
I realize that requires more critical analysis than just running through a check list of okay/not okay. Which is why your attempt to apply it as one to various changes didn’t work well.
Gah, the absolute irony of being told my thinking is too black and white from the guy who can’t hear any argument as anything other than #nochanges lol.
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Question:
Is the argument that dual spec would change up game balance (something you said is roughly where your line is) by allowing players to have a more rounded arsenal at their disposal on-demand a #nochanges argument?
Technically a person can bring two different specs with them anywhere, which is an increase in efficiency and effectiveness depending on the content they’re doing. That’s twice as many builds per player that is able to be called upon throughout a raid than regular.
Reminder: I’m not asking you if you agree with this or not. I know you don’t agree. Is this a #nochanges-argument? It would seem the reasoning is not hinged on it being a change.
If you think it is somehow a #nochanges argument, couldn’t I make the argument that you not wanting the spells/abilities to be changed, or Outland/the game world to be changed is #nochanges? Since you’re just simply against changes being made to those things…so…basically #nochanges right?
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Yes, and it should be an obvious “yes” at that.
The line, being another arbitrary boundary, is going to be what TBC was and what existed outside of TBC, at least to me. It can’t be a strict “nothing outside of TBC” because that’s just another #nochanges hard line position and with HvH BGs and Boosts and whatnot, we’ve already dipped into other expansions and non-TBC content for changes.
So for me the line shifts to whatever one could call the core essence of TBC vs Wrath vs Cata vs… etc. For me, that’s the talents, story, NPCs, raids, classes, gear, etc. For me this does NOT include something like the mount tab, or pet tab.
Systems that are core to the game, like going to kill Arthas, are very much part of the defining experience of Wrath.
Systems that are improvements and overlays to the core game, like tabs, UI alterations, character customization, and other non-power related matters, are not and could be added at any time (including delayed) and not really have a real impact.
The former I want to stay strictly within their expansion experience. The latter I’m fine with them being added at any time, the sooner the better IMHO.
PS - This is why I’m totally in favor of transmog being added now as well. It adds not a lick of power to the game, has a small impact on some AH stuff (but far less if implemented now before squish and Cata eliminates the items from existing), and just grants an awesome form of personal touch to the game. I like aesthetics.
Yeah, well, Zir proudly wears his ignorance like crown or badge. Road to nowhereville when you choose to reply. He’s not alone either.
I swear its like retail never happened.
You cant even like TBC without triggering these guys onto an altar somewhere.
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It’s a nonsensical argument as it doesn’t actually reflect reality, I won’t get into why since that’s already been done. Which is worse than #nochanges as it’s not even accurate.
I think that’s kind of a copout. It’s more than just me who’s offered the idea that it does.
So basically you’re just saying several people are disconnected from reality as your rebuttal to an argument which…I mean, come on dude, I’m sure even you can agree that’s a non-argument because it’s basically just ad hominem because you disagree with it.
Yet still, you ignored the driving point of my post…
Doesn’t you not wanting changes to abilities or the “game world” mean you are #nochanges?
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I already said I didn’t make black and white decisions But to that point, dual spec doesn’t change a single ability literally no ability works different regardless of whether i have dual spec or not. Heck you can even still do respecs as is with no change whatsoever if you are so inclined.