Dual Spec.. please?

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
3045

Yes we have the thing is perspective what we see as a good argument Is or a good reason.

You don’t consider that a good reason Is an any argument that we can give you either one see it differently or 2 don’t agree.

Whether that be because of nostalgia or whatever reason.

Argument 1 It wasn’t in tbc Originally so it shouldn’t be in there now.

Counter 1 So you’re saying Is the changes they made to leather working, Is Joe crafting and enchanting, And same faction battlegrounds were all bad?

Argument 2 We need gold sinks in the game because if not the economy’s going to get thrown Out of whack even more than it already is.

Counter 2 The problem with this is Is people either are not going to try anything else by just not respect It’s because it’s not worth the extra gold just to try something new is try something new that may or may not be enjoyable.

Or 2 it’s not going to matter to the person because they have so much gold already And economy is based on your server I mean I don’t know about yours but I can tell you man options for example.

Manna pots are 11g a stack So until the bots get taken care of the economy is never going to be stable.

Argument 3 It takes away meaningful choice And class identity d Values Is me at whatever I am whether that B DPS tank or heels.

Counter 3 His talents have never been meaningful choice and they never will be in fact meaningful choice every single time they have put it in has been universally Hated.

And a proof This is literally everywhere even if you don’t play retail Is early legion artifact weapons, Is azarete armor respecting, Conduit energy, Is end covenant switching.

Is there’s all your meaningful choices and they all were terrible.

Aside from it taken away from your class identity no it doesn’t The matter what spec you are you’re still a Warrior a paladin Is a warlocker hunter.

Yes an arms Warriors going to have mortal strike and a holy paladin is going to have holy shock just like a retribution is going to have Is crusader strike.

But if someone can switch on the fly to something else that doesn’t devalue my choices that was where my choices adds my choice is at a player.

Just because I speck a certain This way it doesn’t make me feel any less of a protection powder because somebody else can do it.

Is at that point we’re just saying we’re only I can have this certain build nobody else can that’s what you’re saying literally.

Is argument 4 If we let them put duel speck in What else are they going to put in And before you know it will be at retail.

Counter 4 Dual spec is not what killed the game And if you’re going to say that we could have made the same argument with the other changes they’ve made.

Argument 5 tbc Wasn’t designed Is with dual specking mind Is and will make raids and dungeons easier And will spawn a whole Is meta around it where ray gilts are going to require you to have 2 pve Specs.

Is counter 5 Is one how many bosses you honestly think that would happen on 2 If any Guild does do that that’s maybe the top 20% Is 3 9 times out of 10 Is if you can’t kill a boss without dual speck You’re not going to be able to kill it with.

3046

Youre right. But its entirely a case by case basis. Maybe now the road has changed drastically over 15 years and you cant even recognize it compared to how it used to be. But that small 1 lane country road 15 years ago would not have benefitted from a traffic light

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3047

What I was getting that aside from the paid boost Every single one of the changes that you listed would have been fine and what I meant was.

Is the rank 14 grind for PDP in classic wow Is garbage It’s horrible it’s not a good system and quite frankly should not have been brought back.

3048

I thought it was a system that should have been refined. But not entirely replaced.

Honor up to rank 10 should have been somewhat of a time dedication. R14 should have been for premades only and it shoulda been premade vs premade. If you earned X amount of honor per week for 8 weeks when facing only premades youd earn the titles and rank up.

3049

Good thing I never said so!

Bingo!

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3050

You are right that a proposed change needs to be assessed case by case.

What is irritating me is that the position of doubt is being held to a higher standard of proof than the position of change. That’s not even ignoring the convention of the onus of proof, it’s a reversal of it.

The pro dual spec case is built on circular reasoning and a lot of baseless claims. And the onus is then being shifted to those against to prove why the baseless claims are bogus.

One claim is an intrinsically circular one:

We know the claimed benefits will happen because they happened in WoTLK (unverified claim but whatever). But WoTLK is not TBCC. Yes but neither is TBC. However, TBCC is based on TBC and not WoTLK. Yes but they are basically the same. Um no they’re not. Yes but #somechanges.

That’s the general gist and at no point are the pro DS camp providing anywhere near the same level of evidence they are requiring from the no DSers. We’re being asked to come up with concrete proof that any of the possible issues we’ve brought up will (not could) happen in TBC.

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3051

Good so now we’ve established that just because a method is “tried and true” doesnt mean it can be applied in any circumstance can just receive the “Better” version of a system that was implemented at a later date

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3052

I’ve never suggested otherwise…

No one has made this claim. Rather, people have stated that Dual Spec’s downsides are entirely wrapped up in aesthetic preferences for restrictive RPG elements and similar. As such, no substantive downsides or limitations have been shown so in this particular case, it can be applied.

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3053

Nope ive stated some speculation on some legit downsides of dual spec but people seem to disregard the argument and just say “Nah dual spec good. Majority wants”

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3054

The thing is at the end of the day no matter what arguments the we come up with to say why do all yesterday why dual spec would be good for the game.

Because at least I can say I’ve seen several examples where it didn’t really affect the game at all I mean how many well known bc private servers.

Have had it in there it’s not done anything on top of that when is at when I think of what possibly could happen honestly the worst case scenario isn’t that bad.

But at the end of the day we’re not going to be able to provide you with the proof that you want unless we have way to test it.

So unless blizzard puts it on the ptr Is Detroit out or something like that there’s actually not a way to give you that evidence.

Because we can say this worked on private servers this worked on private servers but yes those are not blizzard servers however.

When you see enough of the examples of something working It’s pretty hard to say well this would be bad because it’s a blizzard server.

3055

Speculation pretty much renders the word “legit” entirely inoperable in this sentence. The problem with your speculations, and others, is that you don’t qualify how what we know from WotLK Dual Spec doesn’t map onto TBC sufficient to anticipate the impact it would have.

There is insistence it must be different because TBC isn’t WotLK, but that’s barely a weak argument, if it is an argument at all.

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3056

Is speaking from somebody that did that until rink 12 And not even me right there’s several interviews with people that are competitive arena players like these are guys that got taken to blizzcon.

And if even people like that are saying this this is garbage maybe there’s something to be considered that it’s garbage.

Arena would have just been so much better If you want my opinion I think there should have been.

Is completely revenged pvp system I think you should have been Is able to buy the stuff that was in the game with honor and badges now.

But don’t bring it in the game right away like bring the blue set in Maybe buff some of the worser pieces a little bit.

And add weapons to it make the mccleveland I would say to about ZG Then when AQ comes out.

Then bring in the grand Marshall stuff And then finally when naxx.

Is out Make A PVP gear set equivalent to gear in There.

It’s not as good but very close for example I know there are weapons in there that are 61.68dps.

So the PVP version would be 60.00dps.

The numbers aren’t perfect but you get what I’m saying As far as to how to earn it personally.

Let people buy the blue set with is it with honor in badges.

Arena season one the grand martial gear.

And arena season 2 would be the naxx Is equivalent gear.

And When next comes out you move the grand Marshall stuff to be able to be bought in with honor.

That’s what I would do

3057

Yeah I do agree with that I don’t know it now it it just comes down to the same thing for me I for me I’ve stated the pros and cons is cons several times.

But at the end of the day the possible cois possible cons if there is any is there is any at all are far out weighed by the good.

However what I do think I almost would like to see blizzard do what I heard somebody says just a while ago make it server based let them vote on it.

Although I’m willing to bet if it did go through I almost would guarantee all the people on the server without dual speck would probably just transfer over to the ones that do.

And you know not to point out the obvious to them but a rover 3000 posts on this so obviously it obviously it’s not as if this argument isn’t common.

3058

With that logic than the only people who qualify are the people who run the game. And if they didnt and have put dual spec in. It doesnt belong. Simple

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3059

We could make that argument wis argument with how they change the jewel crafting And enchanting And drums.

And oh just what was that they changed recently oh I know Same faction battlegrounds.

And lowered the prices Of arena gear For season one And a palatin seals just send there have been changes.

So by definition your argument is defunct just from that Because what you’re saying is any change that would be made clearly doesn’t belong.

Because the makers of the game didn’t originally put it in when There’s been a good amount of changes to make the game better how is dual spec any different than same faction battlegrounds.

The reason why they put it in the game was to make the player experience better how is dual spec any Is different?

3060

…you might want to reread the sentence because I used “qualify” as a verb, not an adjective.

This is an is-ought fallacy.

You skipped the steps between showing us what is and what ought to be based upon what is. Simple.

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3061

Ah yes i see i misread that. I think its more along the lines of it would have been in the changes they felt needed to be addressed. Considering they preemptively changed drums knowing that it would have made content more of a joke than it already is. They had to do something to prevent that from happening while trying to preserve the way content felt at least as much as possible (you cant really remove 15 years of knowledge on a game but you can prevent the abuse of mechanics that werent intended to be used in a certain fashion) Which is something i think they should have done to world buffs honestly but thats neither here nor there.

They have taken the approach of #somechanges and done so cautiously. It seems from my perspective that all the changes that were applied were in a need to prevent people from abusing systems, such as, drums, disbanding and reforming arena teams (by starting at 0 instead of 1500). And so on.

Is what i said better for you?

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3062

However by the argument that you’re stating some changes was intended to make the game better and the quality of life and for the record the change you missed a couple.

Is paladen seals, And um Same faction battlegrounds Just saying Those are too well one of them at the very least is extremely big.

But the point is why were they brought in the game to make the game better to make quality of life for the players better dual speck is on the same Is concept of this.

3063

What i find particularly amusing about the logic that blizzard’s decisions regarding dual spec are infallible means that if blizzard did add dual spec to TBC Classic they would have to love that just as much as not having it.

3064

I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to get it here I mean yeah blizzard stance on everything right now has been pretty quiet to say the least.

However yeah I will recommend it is going to come in eventually When wrath comes out However.

That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be beneficial to the player base now and yeah those that didn’t want it would just eventually have to learn to love it.

And they would be in the exact position that wherein right now The only difference would be.

This there would be complaining of how dual speck is ruining the game probably Although quite frankly it is a little bit hard to see how it would.