Dual Spec.. please?

Do explain how those gold saints were ever an actual rpg element.

I mean repairing your gold sure but you apparently are addicted to this fact there has to be an inconvenience for everything.

Because here’s the fact Whether there’s dual speck in the game or not you still have have to grind for the gear to perform in that role.

I don’t care how good of a tank you claim to be a naked Warrior is going to get destroyed in a dungeon.

No matter what spec they are You need both And no I say #DuelSpeck.

Love when people don’t realize that the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim, not on the other person to disprove their claim

“I think there is a hamburger orbiting Uranus and unless you can prove there isn’t, I am right!”

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Not a thing without a formal rule setting or protocol.

Or put more pointedly:

The statement “the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim” is itself a claim, so if anyone wants to assert this and not come off as special pleading, they need to prove their own claim.

This is just bad thinking. An inability to articulate an argument doesn’t make a position wrong or right. A child can state 2 + 2 = 4 because kitties are nice and fluffy, and it would make no sense, but they’d still be correct concerning the summation.

A failure to prove != successful proof of opposing view

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The whole “burden of proof” thing is just becoming a way of compensating for their own inability to argue against something.

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Burden is on the person making the statement if they are trying to convince anyone outside their echo chamber. If their goal is to just preech to the choir then you are correct, they dont need to offer anything.

But if all they want is a circle jerk then the blizzard forums is not the…actually nevermind

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It is a lazy form of argumentation coupled with very egocentric thinking:

  • By foisting the BoP on every challenger, you get to avoid doing any work yourself provided they accept the BoP
  • In the event the challenger denies the BoP, you get to just spout off attacks like “oh so I guess you just have to believe EVERYTHING ANYONE TELLS YOU” and other incongruous nonsense to imply or outright state that the challenger is intellectually stunted or a coward or both
  • Baked into this BoP shifting is the presumption that your own position is the default, or the neutral, or the “correct and accepted” position, and thus you enjoy the benefit of being right by default unless people can overcome your presumption

Not everyone that recites Hitchen’s Razor is doing this mind you, and I don’t know if Demoneye is or not, because it is so commonly repeated that people just take it for granted. All of the razors (or more visceral guillotines) are only rules of thumb, not hard-and-fast laws of logic. Occam’s Razor isn’t actually a logical rule, just a good way to organize solutions and possibilities by order of complexity since simpler explanations take less time and moving parts to prove or disprove. Some aren’t even very good, like Hume’s Guillotine, which is self-defeating, much like Hitchen’s Razor.

It isn’t always in bad faith, but some people definitely use it as such.

Again, you’re talking about protocol, not a rule of logic.

“I won’t be convinced if you don’t prove it to me” is a statement of persuasion, not proof, not logic, not rules one must follow. Protocols and persuasion are deeply ingrained with how much we TRUST and KNOW someone. I don’t really question my mom’s sense of cooking or taste, but I’ll definitely question yours, so as a matter of protocol I would put the burden on myself to disprove my mother’s claims about some food, but I would put the burden on you to prove up your claims.

My point was to point out that your statement here:

…is an unproven claim. By your own rules, you should feel compelled to prove that the burden of proof falls on the claimant, otherwise no one really needs to take your demand very seriously, and instead people should come prepared to both prove their own positions and disprove challenging positions. As a matter of protocol, you can’t really expect people to always abide by your personal local rules of who has the initial burden.

See Socratic Logic by Prof. Peter Kreeft

Shifting the Burden of Proof

The “burden of proof” or “onus of proof” is a matter of protocol, or interpersonal rules in debate. The one who has this “burden of proof” has to prove his case: if he does not, he loses the debate.

Who has the burden of proof? This varies with the situation. Sometimes it is the one who denies, sometimes the one who affirms. Sometimes it is the one who is the first to speak, sometimes the second.

In science, an idea is “guilty until proven innocent,” so to speak: a crucial principle of the scientific method is to accept no idea until you have adequate proof for it. (What counts as “adequate proof” also varies with the situation.) But in ordinary conversation, an idea is “innocent until proven guilty,” so to speak: we believe what our friends say until we have good reason to disbelieve it. If a physicist says he has discovered how to make cheap cold fusion, or if a theologian says he has discovered the date of the end of the world, the burden of proof is on him, and our rightful reply is “Prove it!” But if Aunt Harriet says the dirty little diner downtown serves the best apple pie you’ve ever tasted in your life, or if your brother says he saw a police car crash into the front door of the city library, you don’t say “Prove it.” The burden of proof is on you if you doubt it. This is not a matter of logic but of personal protocol.

It becomes a matter of logic when, in debate, the original strategy is implicitly changed. E.g. in court a prosecuting attorney may badger the defense to prove its case as if the accused were guilty until proved innocent rather than innocent until proved guilty; or a moralist crusading for a prohibition may demand proof that alcohol contributes to the health of bodies or societies. In a debate about a controversial practice that used to be illegal or unavailable, such as cloning or surrogate motherhood, the one who attacks the new procedure often assumes that the burden of proof is on the “new kid on the block,” on the new permissiveness, while the one who defends it often assumes that any practice, like a person, is innocent until proved guilty. Who has the burden of proof here is itself a matter of serious argument, but this should be agreed on before argument proceeds, and whoever assumes the burden of proof should not “cop out” on giving such a proof (i.e. proving his case) by simply accusing his opponent of not proving his case.

Okay,

So according to your logic, since no protocols have been established, anyone is free to make any claim and any demands of evidence to support said position is actually shifting the burden of proof?

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I literally called out this silliness in that post:

If you realize that protocols for proof haven’t been agreed upon yet, and you actually want to have a discussion with another person, you should be willing to at least prove up your own claims at a minimum, while expecting the other person to do the same for their own.

Every position is a claim, so if the debate question is “Should their be Dual Spec in TBCC?” then you have the makings of a claim by answering either “Yes” or “No” that you should expect everyone to have an answer for if they want to debate it.

The whole point of this is to keep things equal and congruent. No side gets a premium on avoiding all aspects of the debate unless everyone agrees to such a burden placement. We put the burden on prosecutors because of our “innocent until proven guilty” rule in a court of law. That’s not a rule of logic, but protocol.

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Okay, well the people who are actually anti-dual spec have the advantage because they dont have to prove anything: it is how it is currently.

So the pro-dual spec individuals have the burden of proof since they are making a claim for change. Everyone else is doing nothing, they dont have to claim anything.

Cant ignore that the default is nothing, and countering a claim does not necessarily mean that they are claiming the opposite direction is true.

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This is an is-ought fallacy.

No. If you have to shift the burden of proof based on a fallacy, you not only haven’t proven Hitchen’s Razor, but your own position is easily dismantled. Therefore, this doesn’t follow.

Not saying it is nothing, but what is has nothing to do with what ought to be without proof. That’s the is-ought fallacy. It is a non sequitur that skips all the actual logical steps needed to get from what “is” to what “ought to be” to justify the present “is”.

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Not really. the whole premise for the conversation is that pro-dual spec people are making a claim. That is the entire foundation for the conversation.

Or are you trying to claim that people against dual spec, which already have what they want, are making claims in a vacuum and not in reaction to the pro-dual spec people?

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As are anti-dual spec people, which is why placing all BoP on pro-dual spec violates Hitchen’s Razor and is just kinda sophomoric to boot. Standing against a change or standing for the status quo are still claims.

If you’re arguing in favor of the status quo, that’s a claim.

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Only in response to other peoples claims.

Or are you trying to say that people are sitting around arguing for the status quo in a vacuum, and not in response to other peoples claims? Seems like a waste of energy to be passionate about “things staying the same” if no one is trying to change anything.

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…which matters why?

People argue for the status quo even in the absence of a suggested change all the time, often with a host of fallacious appeals like appealing to tradition, nature, etc. The same is true of arguing for progress for progress’ sake, even without needing an anti-progress position to serve as a foil.

Very plainly one can ask the following question:

“Do you wish for the status quo to remain the status quo? If so, why? If not, why not?”

Unless you answer with “I don’t know”, you take a position for or against the status quo. BOTH of those are debatable claims.

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Never seen someone argue that things need to stay the same unless someone or some external force is perceived as pushing for change in some manner. Momentum does most of the work there.

Then again maybe we are talking past each other since anything not focused on outcomes is a waste of time as far as I am concerned. Being pedantic for pedantic sake doesnt hold any appeal.

Suppose that X and not-X are mutually exclusive activities:

  • If you propose that doing X is good, then doing not-X is not good.
  • If you propose that avoiding not-X is good, then seeking X is good.

Doing not-X is logically equivalent to not doing X. Whether you argue FOR something, or AGAINST something else that relates to the original something, you’re doing the same thing. You aren’t necessarily required to bring up the other position if you’re simply making a case for the virtues of X after having defined your virtues and related X to all of those virtues.

It isn’t pedantry, it is treating people with a modicum of charity for the sake of a debate. If folks just want to browbeat and bully, then by all means, demand proof, offer none yourself, and treat your position as the default winner and you’ll do exactly that. People will rightfully identify the special pleading (your demands are only one-way) and ignore your position entirely after a time as likely indefensible and most definitely obnoxious.

If one side refuses to actually prove their own case or disprove the opposition’s case, that side is being argued by ignorant sophists.

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You assume that it is a dichotamous variable. It is not. There is the middle step which is “dont care” that is where most people are. Someone can be against bad arguments without being against the proposed outcome.

You cant disprove a claim that has no foundations to disprove, so someone refusing to do so is recognizing that it is a waste of time until there is a foundation to disprove. Very different from a claim that has a solid foundation and someone refusing to address said foundation.

So back to my example: I say there is a burger orbiting Uranus. How can you prove there ISNT one. You cant, you can provide a lot of evidence to show that it is unlikely, but you cant disprove it. There is no foundation on which you can argue because it is not a claim based on any evidence.

Which is why it is “inefficient” to argue that people can make any claim they want and the burden is on others to prove them wrong. IMO

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no one is entitled to other peoples time and energy if they are not willing to engage in good faith. Again, IMO

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“I don’t care” positions make no claims and aren’t part of the debate. Agnostics can only stay agnostic by bowing out of the discussion entirely, since “I don’t care” favors neither side/outcome. However, if someone wants to claim the benefit of agnosticism in a debate, that is they won’t be demanded to give an answer, that someone can’t also plop themselves in the midst of the debate and declare one side a winner.

If you’re agnostic to the debate, cool, but you have no means or methods to demand proof.

Stating that a claim has no foundations is itself a claim.

Russell’s Teapot is neat and all but it only helps within the limitations of such a proposition. Teapots and burgers are finite things, and while you can’t definitively disprove the existence of a teapot in space, I can’t prove one either. The error Russell wanted to correct was the (sometimes) idiot notion that if the opposition can’t prove something, my position must be correct.

But like I said, burgers and teapots are finite things subject to a lot of information we can’t necessarily know. In Russell’s case, trying to adapt a teapot to God was a categorical error on his part. Proving and disproving concepts like infinity, good, knowledge, reality, God, etc, aren’t subject to the same level of multivariate uncertainty. Something is either infinite, or it is not, there aren’t innumerable in-between alternatives. Something is either contingent, or it is not. Something is either ordered, or it is not. Absolutes have the benefit of being much easier to prove and disprove because they logically eliminate partials and midway mixes of things that can’t exist simultaneously.

In the case of a debate like Dual Spec, you can either be for or against to be part of the debate.

I never made this claim. I said that without predefined protocols, any person entering a debate should be prepared to prove up their own claims as well as disprove their opponent’s claims. This is because a) you may agree to doing one or the other and b) they are often logical equivalents, as shown above.

The whole point of rejecting arbitrary BoP placement is for the sake of good faith and charity in debate. A debater isn’t behaving in good faith if they have a position they support but refuse to actually articulate that support nor offer reasons why opposition is incorrect, all while demanding the opposition prove up everything.

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Someone agnostic to the topic can see reasoning that, if true, would make it so they no longer remain agnostic to the topic.

You are right for a structured, moderated, formal debate, but then those are not about being logical, they are about being convincing. People who are completely wrong can easily win debates if they are better at being convincing than the other person.

In the format of a public forum where everyone can participate I am kinda confused on what you are getting at. Maybe we are talking about different things?

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Sure… but then that just makes them a “Yes” or a “No” and if someone declares:

“I am convinced by the anti-Dual Spec side”

That someone is now just as much owning the claim in support of the status quo (or against changing the status quo, same thing) as others already present in the debate.

Rhetoric != logic, you are correct. But I’m not going to excuse bad logic in favor of good rhetoric.

In a public forum like this, there are no formalize and agreed upon rules of who gets to speak to whom, how long, how often, in what order, etc. It is a free for all. However, that just reinforces my point: if you want to jump into a free for all debate, unless you want to be treated like a vapid cheerleader for a side, you need to be able to bring something to the table in the form of argument and proof.

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