I thought it might be appropriate to get a constructive discussion going on what we might expect from these potential tweaks for dual spec in WOTLK.
Brian B. did say they were open to feedback, so let’s get some healthy feedback churning.
None of this:
“They should all lose their jobs”
[Unnecessary flaming that accomplishes nothing]
“Touch Dual Spec, I quit”
[This is #nochanges, and we live in a #somechanges scenario]
No flaming here, I’d like some honest discussion on what would be reasonable tweaks to dual spec so that Blizzard may reach their vision for WOTLK Classic.
Personally I think a reasonable change to achieve the game state they’re seeking would be to limit spec changing to rest areas, and if that is causing an issue in the meta with people constantly hearthing then just slap a 1-2 hour cooldown on it.
This will:
Allow people to use dual spec relatively frequently without the cooldown being much of a bother at all (if any).
Prevent the encroachment of “hybrid-washing”, which sort of indirectly hurts the value of hybrid roles/classes that Blizz mentioned of all classes being able to do more things at any one point in time (in-between pulls of course) than they originally intended.
This to me would be reasonable tweaks.
If you believe it just shouldn’t be touched, that’s valid, but Blizzard has already voiced how they feel, and we’ve known since the beginning of TBCC that there will be #somechanges, so in the spirit of respecting their design goals, let’s talk some shop.
There’s nothing to reduce, in a sense, classic servers are like “free” addons to what is already a product that was valued at ~$15/m. Retail was $15/m before classic and it still is after classic.
I feel like they should just leave it as it was, people that want to swap specs between pulls will do it anyway. All this achieves is an ever so slightly inconvenience to what they would do anyway and hurts the more casual playerbase but limiting there ability to take advantage of the feature like the min-maxers are.
If an inconvenience is there for the sake of inconvenience, then why is it there in the first place?
Was hoping for a venue like this. Thanks for opening the thread.
The significance given to hybrid specs is odd and seems to be more a product of Classic neo-culture than the actual original expansion. If we return to public conversations of the time (can’t link otherwise I’d serve up something via Wayback), the biggest concerns over dual spec were cost and the limitation of only two specs. And unlike LFD, which has been controversial since its introduction, there has never been any mainstream discussion of hybrid specs. It’s not unfair to ask Birmingham to elaborate on what and who is driving this.
On the same point — has there ever been any consistent expression of regret over being able to perform two roles for personal enjoyment or group flexibility? Wrath isn’t known as the expansion of hybrid specs. It’s the expansion that made moonlighting as a tank or healer universal. Switching talents without re-selecting at a trainer or resetting UI isn’t a mere quality-of-life improvement; it’s redefinition of the game, and again, the record holds it as majority positive.
Hybrid spec is by definition the kind of gameplay that self-imposes artificial limitations — which is totally fine, but undermines the claim that pragmatic/min-max standards will affect it. Players who make imaginative rather than practical talent choices will run into conflicts and potential rejection with or without dual spec.
So, on one hand, limitations lack real justification, at least as stated by the dev team so far. (What’s self-evident to them is not to most of us.) On other other, the floated halfway solutions leave a lot to be desired. An hour is a long time between Wrath dungeons, and people often need to switch it up. Also, if there aren’t do-overs… “Okay, so I’ll tank.” “No, wait, I was going to switch back.” “F—, I just switched.” “Well, I can’t do it in this spec, so I don’t know what to —” The healer has left the group. “Awesome lol.” Your group has been disbanded.
Specs should be opened up to work like bank slots. 1K for the second, 2k for a third and so on. This would improve on the original implementation for those who would use more than 2 specs regularly, IE someone with multiple pve specs who also likes to pvp.
There are a few good pvp hybrid specs, which people wouldn’t switch out of because dual spec since they’re you know actually good specs(the reason blizzard locked people into 1 talent tree before branching off in Cata was specifically because of how good some hybrid specs were in pvp). But most people using hybrid specs outside pvp are knowingly playing meme specs, and that was always the case. Those players also don’t drop their hybrid spec because of dual spec since they like playing that spec.
If anything dual spec increases the people playing hybrid specs because they can more readily play that meme spec and have a good spec when needed.
Which is why his statement about hybrid specs is just so out of tune with the way people have always played.
In the sense of just leaving it at needing to be in a main city, it goes around that limitation, and then if people want to hearth repeatedly then…so be it but I doubt people will actually do that seriously (to the point that it is a serious concern for players) even if that was how it was implemented.
That’s a really, really good counterpoint and I hope he hears it.
I guess — at that point, is it about encouraging hybrid specs or just making life difficult for somebody inside the instance who’s willing to switch specs to help a party-mate out?
Taking a step back, I’d say most of the challenge of hybrid specs comes from tree design and “obvious choices,” while dual spec is a separate response to the need for flexibility in a game that made commitment to a spec necessary for the most part.
I feel like they are trying to avoid adding dual spec because they are just going to tear it down if they go into a Cata classic. I don’t agree with this reasoning because I really enjoyed having a dedicated pvp spec alongside my pve one but I do understand where it comes from.
Slap a 30-60 min cooldown on it & not useable inside instance. Dual-spec will be the only thing that has me playing a tanking or healing role to some extent in WotLK. I won’t be playing a mono-spec heal/tank raid-logging character this time around.
This isn’t true. You can only play one or the other at the same time.
Many people only pay for their subscription to play one or the other. People who alternate between both are in the minority to a fairly high degree.
It’s the same logic people use when they see an item is on sale and says it’s such a great deal, but forgot they were never going to buy that item anyways. I’m not paying for retail wow. I’m paying for classic wow, and I’m sure if you ask around you’ll find many people say the same thing.
They aren’t open to feed back because if they were we would be getting LFD. Some of the most obvious changes in retail and classic would have been changed. They only use these words to keep players making excuses for their poor decisions. I would love to have a conversation if it would lead to anything. So until we are actually heard, the devs need to be fired and I unsubbed from this garbage company run by geriatric boomers that don’t play their own game
In the spirit of adding gold sinks I think they should make it a 10k gold initial fee and then 500g to respec either tree and 50g to swap between the 2 each time.