Druid and paladin raid tanks

[Skjaldbjorn-lightbringer (Skjaldbjorn)]

ya i don’t dps. i bear. period.

A bear MT is just a terrible idea. Can’t see any guild doing this and being even remotely successful.

[Vadeem-eitrigg]

15k HP/Armor buffed in AQ gear.

Yup. You are correct. Every guild starting progression has an AQ40 geared tank to start with. Forgive me for forgetting all druids start raiding 3 tiers above everyone else.

I was in error thinking our main tank for MC was way undergeard compared to a druid.

Comparing an end of end game druids is just ugh.

[Shimy-khadgar]

The main concern is about crushing blows and critical hits, which are very difficult mechanisms for Druids and Paladins to deal with.

Warriors have Shield Block and can prevent getting one shot. Long story short, regardless of their strengths or weaknesses, Paladins and Druids cannot prevent this and tend to be very unreliable in damage reduction.

This… take out all of the other situations/facts/beliefs…

Paladins and Druids get one shot

[Stabyaman-area-52]

because they don’t have taunt and warriors can’t be critted, paladins and druids are better for 5 man content and even OT SOME stuff in raids but MTing the heavy hitters or bosses that knockback and drop the tank’s aggro are out of the question. You can tank, just don’t expect to be the MT.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

Why can’t paladins and druids raid tan

Druids are viable tanks, Pallies not so much so.

Paladin tanking issues are not limited to not having a taunt.
-They require a very funky set of gear which overall is less optimal for tanking when compared to warrior tanking gear.
-Their threat is reliant on getting hit.
-They don’t have the same support from talents that warriors and druids do.
-Their threat is also limited to their mana pool + consumables.oom pally tank=SFA threat generated.

In short even if blizzard gave pallies a taunt it wouldn’t fix their issues and at best would only make them viable in molten core/onyxia outside of gimmick fights.

Pally tanks can tank some encounters beyond entry level raids but these are restricted to AOE tanking which arguably a warrior and bear can do better with less risk of dying.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

Paladins and Druids get one shot

False, a pally/druid in tanking gear will never get one shot unless they’re severely undergeared for it. IN the same situation a warrior would also get one shot.

Stop spreading false info to support your agenda.

[Controled-thrall]

Threat is the most important thing because threat gates your DPS. Low threat means low DPS output

So while warriors are losing damage to boss armor, the paladin isn’t. The paladin is getting full value out of their threat-generating damage

There is a major difference in threat generation between Classic and Retail. While damage does generates threat, unlike today, damage isn’t the primary way threat is generated. Back in Vanilla, specific spells generated significantly more threat then others, such as Sunder Armor.

Many things have changed over the years. Threat management used to be a very important part of a tanks job, but they have simplified it since then. These days threat is generated based entirely on basic damage dealt and very little thought is put into it. In Vanilla and now Classic, Tank damage output was not expected like it is today, you had dps for that.

Some of these including that you don’t even need a shield for a warrior… you’re prime objective is just threat generation. So they tank with fury.

Tanking without a shield? What are you watching that is saying that a warrior can tank without a shield? Most of their Protection abilities, like Sunder armor, require a shield to use in the first place.

[Shimy-khadgar]

I don’t have an agenda lmao… I’ve never had a Druid or paladin tank for me in vanilla, in a raid. I literally play a priest so idk how I have an agenda

Paladins and druids cannot be crit immune. Warriors can

[Staburface-ursin]

Warriors had dodge, parry & block to help get to uncrushable which is why they were more viable as raid tanks in vanilla (as well as threat mitigation and itemisation), as gearing was easier from that point.

Pally gear in vanilla was stacked with +int, making it less favourable with gearing and Druids also had some itemisation challenges (from gear). Druids later would overcome this by stacked health pools to be able to soak the large damage spikes.

[Luuni-area-52]

Sunder armor does not require a shield.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

Paladins and druids cannot be crit immune.

Errr they can, it’s less likely and effective for a druid to be crit immune. A pally can also push crushings off the table but fall down in other area’s.

And I can see your agenda, You’re a lazy healer (which theres nothing wrong with)

[Skjaldbjorn-lightbringer (Skjaldbjorn)]

Tanking without a shield? What are you watching that is saying that a warrior can tank without a shield? Most of their Protection abilities, like Sunder armor, require a shield to use in the first place.

Sunder doesn’t need a shield. This is apparently pserver meta based on killing a boss in under 90 seconds. It is widely believed that pservers use incorrect math when calculating the way debuffs work on bosses, allowing them to take more damage than they should. Pservers also have an unlimited supply of BL allowing raids to fully flask. This allows dps to push harder, and healers to spam heal over a short period of time as opposed to cancel healing.

The general idea is to kill the boss before having to worry about mechanics. More than likely it will not work on Classic.

[Shimy-khadgar]

I’ll take your word for it, not against giving people opportunities!

[Jokel-lightninghoof]

But this ain’t your momma’s wow. So…

Actually, for quite a few younger players, this could well be their momma’s WoW.

[Kolben-icecrown (Kolben)]

Someone had once told me that it’s because those two classes don’t have a taunt, making warriors the only viable raid tank. Is this the only reason?

Taunt is not their issue.

Bears are fine, we’ll see more of them in semi-serious PVE this time around.

The main issue with Paladins is they have a mana bar. Once that is gone, they are useless.

Bears and Warriors use Rage which is an infinite resource. They both can achieve much higher levels of single target threat and effective health which are the main things a raid tank needs to do.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

And thats the thing, I’m not saying they’re always 100% MT material but in situations they really have a good shot at shining.
-Pally tank is ideal for trash/multiple non-boss adds as their aoe while less effective is equal TPS on just about every mob and requires less effort than warrior tanks.
-Bear druid is great for elemental damage dealing bosses as they generally don’t crit and ignore block and armor anyways.

Theres heaps of situations in classic where bears and pallies can shine, they’re just not as consistantly good as warriors.

[Controled-thrall]

Sunder doesn’t need a shield. This is apparently pserver meta based on killing a boss in under 90 seconds

I know Private servers aren’t completely reliable. I recall Devastate(in the BC and onward) requiring a shield though, so I would think the sunder armor version would require a shield too? Or was that just 2.0 and onward?

Still would like to see a video of a fury warrior without a shield tanking consistently, even with sunder armor. That seems like something that would happen on a boss here or there, but to be a regular occurrence seems odd.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

so I would think the sunder armor version would require a shield too?

It’s never needed a shield otherwise dps warriors would have been even more ostracized in TBC dungeons.

[Skjaldbjorn-lightbringer (Skjaldbjorn)]

And I can see your agenda, You’re a lazy healer (which theres nothing wrong with)

A druid cannot become crit immune without severely hindering the rest of their stats. Every guide I’ve seen doesn’t even make an effort to become crit immune. The problem paladins have is that on top of needing the same gear as a warrior tank, they also need SP and int. So they have to find a balance between threat and mitigation. Whereas a warrior gets his threat with the same gear that gives him mitigation.

I do have an agenda, and that agenda is to progress without asking 39 people to help carry the dead weight of a player that can’t be bothered with choosing a proper raid spec.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

A druid cannot become crit immune without severely hindering the rest of their stats.

Nice way of not highlighting the part where I said that.

The problem paladins have is that on top of needing the same gear as a warrior tank, they also need SP and int

And again.

So they have to find a balance between threat and mitigation. Whereas a warrior gets his threat with the same gear that gives him mitigation.

Actually a mitigation and threat set for a warrior are two completely seperate things with minimal overlap (generally tier)

So aside from deliberately not quoting what I said that reinforces your point, what are you trying to say?

I’ll reiterate what I’ve said in other posts in this thread. Pallies and druid tanks have uses (more so the druids thanks to fight design) but warriors are the optimal tanks in most situations.