Odd, I’ve played with several well geared bear tanks. In MC they basically just taunt off like any DPS warrior can do with a shield. In BWL it seems they always take to much damage on boss fights and require way to much healer attention. So much so that it becomes questionable to even bother dealing with a bear tank.
I mean if the warrior is a better player than the rogue then it shouldn’t matter and should be given to the warrior. You should never back yourself in a corner with loot where X class has to get it of Y. You give it where it makes sense like if a warrior and rogue are close as players then give it to the rogue.
I am a feral tank and main OT. I have DFT. It is a huge piece, and bears make the best OTs for high DPS guilds. No one else can chase threat like a bear, and in threat chasing gear, no one else can survive like a bear. Of course it depends on your role, but bears should be high up on the list for prio or your raid is not using you properly.
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Actually rogues can survive better than bears with evasion and dps warriors with shield wall. What does threat chasing even mean when most of the swaps are done via taunt swaps.
You mean getting #2 in threat? Plenty of fury warriors can do that very easily. Even rogues can do that by anticipating threat changes by poping adrenaline rush and thistle tea.
Yes, a warrior with shield wall can suvive better but only for the length of shield wall. A rogue with evasion, not so much. They also can’t come close to the threat a bear can.
Yes, but not in the same gear they need to survive. If the MT goes down, you need someone who can survive and hold threat against all 20 of the 99 parsing warriors. No one does that as well as a bear. I am talking about on fights like Vael/Nef/Chrom.
All 20 99 parsing warriors are in 1 guild and their main tank managed to die? I’ve seen warrior offtanks pick up the boss against 90% parses consistently and smoothly.
I’ve seen druid tanks pick it up and its always healers desperately trying to keep them up especially on nef where the bear can die before healers even realized he picked it up. When a bear takes aggro its anything but smooth.
MCP bears outthreat TF fury prot tanks by a relative good margin the are out tps’ed during recklessness and deathwish but this is offset by the defence loss the warrior now takes and increase likelihood of crushing blow and consecutive crits killing them. Even with cooldowns a MCP bear will out threat a deep fury prot which is the warrior in your situation. Bear mit and hp is so high that yes compared to fury prot warriors stacking pure tps to compete with a bear they are.
This BIS trio for bears is BoA - DFT - BoSF with these 3 they are able to stack almost pure threat and mit pieces. The only fights a bear skips out on tanking is Nef in all honesty.
^^^^
In MC they’re most likely not using pummelers as farming more than 2-3 MCPs for MC is cringe, again without an MCP they compare to a deep prot warrior.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRVNabnxWQoq4Ya_cNDMKuZJwf9zbfzWhe3qf6d08gEk3OuJJ_z_zgERPRaDioAGux14ORx6thE6Hub/pubhtml#
If you’d like to go into this document and go to the ‘threat’ section the creator compares TPS of Bears/Prot/Fury and taking into account gear. (whilst including cooldowns) It shows that bears out TPS by a significant margin in fights under 2 minutes. (Which is the majority) And receive a threat during during the 1.5-2 minute period due to the Manual Crowd Pummeler cooldown.
N Elf Druid Feral Ultra Baseline Worldbuffed
Total Threat : 124497
TPS: 2075.0
DPS: 795.4
TPS+: 2220.9 (when critting higher than normal.)
Human Warrior Fury Ultra DWish, Reck, Sit, DW World Buffed
Total Threat: 107700
TPS: 1795.0
DPS: 1064.0
TPS+: 2027.0
This is a 1 minute fight, fury prot warriors only overtake Bears two minutes after a fight.
Warriors have better snap (instant threat) due to the fact most of their threat generation isn’t based off of 1 ability that can be dodged/parried and they also have the ability to reduce parry chance via weapon skill. As well as this equiping a two hander they are able to clear better AOE much better than druids trash pack>bosses in speedrunning. Extremely different environment compared to the one you and I are in.
Edit: Druids on fights especially like Broodlord take more DPS than warriors due to the inability to parry and stack as much pure defence. However they do not get hit harder due to the ability so stack plenty more armor (and use barkskin if necessary, 20% reduced damage taken 20% reduced haste)
I do highly recommend you use the link I gave you and check conclusions for a quick TLDR before about something mentioned the in doc.
In order to keep threat with all those R14 and TF wielding try-hards (we have 4 TFs) the Warrior MT must be Fury/Prot dual wielding and in threat gear. This substantially reduces his survivability. Does he die all the time? Of course not. Our MT is an excellent tank. But at that level its just how it is. You have to take risks (with gear choices) and go all out to get the fastest clear times. I am basically the insurance policy. IF the sh*t hits the fan, I pick up the slack and make sure we succeed.
You might ask why I don’t just MT all the time (I do on Broodlord and sometimes Firemaw). The answer is because unless I have a few seconds to ensure agro, I might not keep it. A warrior’s snap agro is superior to a druids. I NEED that first Maul crit to not lose agro. A warrior has more buttons to press to ensure instant threat. On bosses where there is no pause for a tank to get agro (almost all of our fights during speed clears), an early parry when I am MT can be a raid wipe.
In any “normal” guild (one not constantly pushing for fastest clear times) there is more than enough time for a bear to solidify an agro lead, and thus a bear is a perfectly valid choice for MT for all fights so far in Classic.
I tank Nef regularly. If I get agro (or I know I’m going to be tanking Nef) I pop a Greater Stoneshield pot. This, along with Elixir of Superior Defense, my rather high armor gear, Paly aura and the crit armor buff from priests puts my armor in the 9k range in cat form. I also have around 10k HPs in cat form fully buffed (which I always am). It has only happened once that there was a druid call while I had agro, but the healers had no problem keeping me alive.
In general the healers say I am much easier to heal than the BIS warrior MT unless he is in pure mitigation gear, which is like, never. There is nothing in this game I have not tanked many times without difficulty. In fact, I basically never die unless the healers are all already dead.
The hardest part of Bear tanking is knowing how to gear, and getting that gear. These problems are due to the fact that there is a lot of bad information in Bear tanking BIS guides, and people are ignorant in their beliefs, respectively.
Edit: I just read the rest of your post and see you said a lot of the same things I did. To the above quote I take an exception however. I always MT Broodlord and never die. I almost always keep threat the whole fight also (which is why I MT it). In partial threat gear and with MCP I am still almost at armor cap with priest crit armor buff. I also have decent fire resist in this gear (180ish with paly aura). I just don’t take that much damage. I may take more hits, but due to superior HPs and mitigation I am the only tank that can be assured to not die on that boss.
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Druids as a fact take more steady DPS as they can’t parry or stack defence as well, but the DPS is stable compared to a fury prot tank in 6k armor or even some deep prot due to our ability to gain so much armor to mitigate it, and therefor way easier to heal through.
Thats the thought I was trying to convey
I think you just need to play with better bears.
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The problem that I have with the words you are saying, and the exception I take is with the word “more.” I do not take “more” DPS because my armor is so much higher. Also, because i can use resistance gear and an MCP without losing too much armor or threat my resistances are also higher in general (obviously not on fights where resistances are capped). This mitigates magic damage better also. The incoming damage is steady, but its not more. In point of fact I take quite a bit less on every boss in the game so far when compared to a Fury/Prot tank. Its not just less spikey, its less period. Its about on par with a Prot tank in full mitigation gear, with much higher TPS.
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Yep, this is established fact at this point. Bears take a lot less damage and have more EHP than fury-prots when gearing for equal TPS.
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Bears can still get crushed/crited. Why guilds are risking bear tanks on chromagus when they can’t use sand in bearform? Why are you risking tanking nef as a bear when you might get turned into a cat and you don’t have your own answer to fear?
After reading everything here all I see is bears are far more risk that present no needed advantages over a warrior tank.
There are these new fangled things called macros. Google them.
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Your still left vulnerable to getting 1 shot when u shift out all which can be avoided by using a warrior instead.
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You really do like to demonstrate your ignorance on the subject of druids.
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We are having a discussion for a reason. You needless insult offers no assistance in that department.
No, you are attempting to disparage druid tanks, and are doing so from ignorance, being a class in direct competition for the item being discussed.
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No we are having a discussion about druid tanks. I said that because Skarm probably the best druid tanks in the world said he would’t tank Magmadar, Chromaggus or nef.
He said they arn’t good for druid tanks because of fear, the attackspeed gain from a delayed tranq shot and said he wouldn’t tank chroma because he can’t use sand in bear form.
So please don’t impose your hateful assumptions.
14:20 talks about why Magmadar is bad for druids.
He says bears can get crit and crushed and that bears don’t have as much avoidance as warriors. He said druids do take more damage then warriors when the boss attacks faster.
19:55 He talks about why bears shouldn’t Chromagus
21:32 Why u don’t risk a bear tank on Nef
I think I need this trinket for the RET set I’m building. I got a cool sword the other day, I wanna hit stuff and need the HIT rating to hit stuff.
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