Dodge isn’t the reason that bears like DFT. In fact dodge is the worst mitigation stat in Classic because of how little you can stack and how spikey the damage intake is (dodges just turn into overhealing since you can’t rely on cancelcasting anyway). DFT is incredible for bears because it provides the largest threat increase for a single gear slot by an enormous margin, and because the hit on it provides full value in current content due to the relative scarcity of hit on feral gear and our 9% cap. This translates to a significant jump in your raid’s threat ceiling or allows the bear to maintain an existing threat ceiling while subbing out a lot more mitigation elsewhere.
Yes, all that gear dancing and justification just to ultimately be an inferior warrior tank.
Dang I wish feral druids had an entire form specifically made for tanking thats more effective than a 20 second cooldown on most bosses.
The funny part is your guild would suit a feral tank the most, a bear with anywhere near the equivalent of gear your MT has and using MCPs would defs output more threat by large margins and have more mit than your deep prot tank even with TF.
My point with this particular post was in response to the other poster who said MS > OS. Well, Diamond Flask snapshotting is MS so his point is kinda lost there.
However, I didn’t say MT > MH. In fact in a later post, I said some guilds do MT > alt healer. If someone is bringing an alt healer to the raid, there is a very good chance that MT is getting the gear over an alt. And if you don’t think that is happening, you might want to take a good look at these forums since there is at least one very large post where the responses on that topic were pretty mixed.
Rogue proclaims BIS trinket for warriors and rogues should go to rogues.
Warrior alt doesn’t understand why rogues should have priority over warriors due to heroic strike exploit…I mean mechanics. Yeah. Mechanics.
Oh and here, I will save you some trouble. I am guessing there is a blue post around here somewhere, but this is the gist of it https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/off-hand-swings-with-hs-cleave-queued-dont-suffer-dw-miss-penalty/309417
And he’ll also have no significant cooldowns like shield wall, last stand, LGG, potion, etc. Hope nothing goes wrong!
Having more mit and the same threat producing ability as a fury prot means you’re in a constant state of shield wall : )
Every single half decent bear has a powershift macro to pop GSS pots, Whipper root and can always. For example a macro to pop GSS, Whipper root, shift into bear then cast sequence demo roar. All without ruining their threat gain or risking getting hit in human form.
Although I do agree the lack of LGG, GSS, Shield Wall combo is a con.
Not sure how this thread has gone on so long.
Simple answer is, if you have to ask, it’s probably warrior prio.
Yeah, I’m not buying w/e your selling. I’d like to see this mystical bear tank that is pulling more threat then a BiS fury warrior tank with TF. Who also is in a permanent state of shield wall.
Let me guess all he needs is DFT, boots of the shadowflame and all the best pieces from AQ. Even then he somehow skips out on tanking 95% of the fights.
Realistically, threat outputs are near irrelevant at current, the advantage warrior has is burst threat through reckwish at the start of a fight and overall dps, but bears are going to take less damage, even in full threat gear.
Like doing 2x or 1.8x the threat your dps is doing doesn’t matter at all, which is where we are right now.
Odd, I’ve played with several well geared bear tanks. In MC they basically just taunt off like any DPS warrior can do with a shield. In BWL it seems they always take to much damage on boss fights and require way to much healer attention. So much so that it becomes questionable to even bother dealing with a bear tank.
I mean if the warrior is a better player than the rogue then it shouldn’t matter and should be given to the warrior. You should never back yourself in a corner with loot where X class has to get it of Y. You give it where it makes sense like if a warrior and rogue are close as players then give it to the rogue.
I am a feral tank and main OT. I have DFT. It is a huge piece, and bears make the best OTs for high DPS guilds. No one else can chase threat like a bear, and in threat chasing gear, no one else can survive like a bear. Of course it depends on your role, but bears should be high up on the list for prio or your raid is not using you properly.
Actually rogues can survive better than bears with evasion and dps warriors with shield wall. What does threat chasing even mean when most of the swaps are done via taunt swaps.
You mean getting #2 in threat? Plenty of fury warriors can do that very easily. Even rogues can do that by anticipating threat changes by poping adrenaline rush and thistle tea.
Yes, a warrior with shield wall can suvive better but only for the length of shield wall. A rogue with evasion, not so much. They also can’t come close to the threat a bear can.
Yes, but not in the same gear they need to survive. If the MT goes down, you need someone who can survive and hold threat against all 20 of the 99 parsing warriors. No one does that as well as a bear. I am talking about on fights like Vael/Nef/Chrom.
All 20 99 parsing warriors are in 1 guild and their main tank managed to die? I’ve seen warrior offtanks pick up the boss against 90% parses consistently and smoothly.
I’ve seen druid tanks pick it up and its always healers desperately trying to keep them up especially on nef where the bear can die before healers even realized he picked it up. When a bear takes aggro its anything but smooth.
MCP bears outthreat TF fury prot tanks by a relative good margin the are out tps’ed during recklessness and deathwish but this is offset by the defence loss the warrior now takes and increase likelihood of crushing blow and consecutive crits killing them. Even with cooldowns a MCP bear will out threat a deep fury prot which is the warrior in your situation. Bear mit and hp is so high that yes compared to fury prot warriors stacking pure tps to compete with a bear they are.
This BIS trio for bears is BoA - DFT - BoSF with these 3 they are able to stack almost pure threat and mit pieces. The only fights a bear skips out on tanking is Nef in all honesty.
In MC they’re most likely not using pummelers as farming more than 2-3 MCPs for MC is cringe, again without an MCP they compare to a deep prot warrior.
If you’d like to go into this document and go to the ‘threat’ section the creator compares TPS of Bears/Prot/Fury and taking into account gear. (whilst including cooldowns) It shows that bears out TPS by a significant margin in fights under 2 minutes. (Which is the majority) And receive a threat during during the 1.5-2 minute period due to the Manual Crowd Pummeler cooldown.
N Elf Druid Feral Ultra Baseline Worldbuffed
Total Threat : 124497
TPS+: 2220.9 (when critting higher than normal.)
Human Warrior Fury Ultra DWish, Reck, Sit, DW World Buffed
Total Threat: 107700
This is a 1 minute fight, fury prot warriors only overtake Bears two minutes after a fight.
Warriors have better snap (instant threat) due to the fact most of their threat generation isn’t based off of 1 ability that can be dodged/parried and they also have the ability to reduce parry chance via weapon skill. As well as this equiping a two hander they are able to clear better AOE much better than druids trash pack>bosses in speedrunning. Extremely different environment compared to the one you and I are in.
Edit: Druids on fights especially like Broodlord take more DPS than warriors due to the inability to parry and stack as much pure defence. However they do not get hit harder due to the ability so stack plenty more armor (and use barkskin if necessary, 20% reduced damage taken 20% reduced haste)
I do highly recommend you use the link I gave you and check conclusions for a quick TLDR before about something mentioned the in doc.
In order to keep threat with all those R14 and TF wielding try-hards (we have 4 TFs) the Warrior MT must be Fury/Prot dual wielding and in threat gear. This substantially reduces his survivability. Does he die all the time? Of course not. Our MT is an excellent tank. But at that level its just how it is. You have to take risks (with gear choices) and go all out to get the fastest clear times. I am basically the insurance policy. IF the sh*t hits the fan, I pick up the slack and make sure we succeed.
You might ask why I don’t just MT all the time (I do on Broodlord and sometimes Firemaw). The answer is because unless I have a few seconds to ensure agro, I might not keep it. A warrior’s snap agro is superior to a druids. I NEED that first Maul crit to not lose agro. A warrior has more buttons to press to ensure instant threat. On bosses where there is no pause for a tank to get agro (almost all of our fights during speed clears), an early parry when I am MT can be a raid wipe.
In any “normal” guild (one not constantly pushing for fastest clear times) there is more than enough time for a bear to solidify an agro lead, and thus a bear is a perfectly valid choice for MT for all fights so far in Classic.
I tank Nef regularly. If I get agro (or I know I’m going to be tanking Nef) I pop a Greater Stoneshield pot. This, along with Elixir of Superior Defense, my rather high armor gear, Paly aura and the crit armor buff from priests puts my armor in the 9k range in cat form. I also have around 10k HPs in cat form fully buffed (which I always am). It has only happened once that there was a druid call while I had agro, but the healers had no problem keeping me alive.
In general the healers say I am much easier to heal than the BIS warrior MT unless he is in pure mitigation gear, which is like, never. There is nothing in this game I have not tanked many times without difficulty. In fact, I basically never die unless the healers are all already dead.
The hardest part of Bear tanking is knowing how to gear, and getting that gear. These problems are due to the fact that there is a lot of bad information in Bear tanking BIS guides, and people are ignorant in their beliefs, respectively.
Edit: I just read the rest of your post and see you said a lot of the same things I did. To the above quote I take an exception however. I always MT Broodlord and never die. I almost always keep threat the whole fight also (which is why I MT it). In partial threat gear and with MCP I am still almost at armor cap with priest crit armor buff. I also have decent fire resist in this gear (180ish with paly aura). I just don’t take that much damage. I may take more hits, but due to superior HPs and mitigation I am the only tank that can be assured to not die on that boss.
Druids as a fact take more steady DPS as they can’t parry or stack defence as well, but the DPS is stable compared to a fury prot tank in 6k armor or even some deep prot due to our ability to gain so much armor to mitigate it, and therefor way easier to heal through.
Thats the thought I was trying to convey