Well that’s why it would be part of the talent trees as an optional build.
It’s like pulling teeth with some of yall.
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Oyi that CRD reduction just made Outlaw mandatory for raids. It’s windfury 2.0. This is not good game design.
After looking at Rogue I really feel like Druid’s tree was slapped together with duct tape. Please so better when you look at druid again. Our damage tress are looking pitiful compared to pure DPS classes and not everyone heals or tanks on a druid - or even remotely considers it being an option.
4 Likes
OK so, throwing this here, who knows if anyone will read this.
For rogues;
-Why is echoing reprimand there, its not a fun ability and a huge point sink just to get it at 75% of what it currently is with the legendary. Should be replaced with something more interesting IMO
-Not a huge fan of a lot of survivablity and defensives being locked behind abilities that will be dead for other specs. Want evasion? Get Garotte. It’s weird to me, not the worst but definitely can see dead talents required to get fun or useful stuff for a situation.
-Sub tree lacks branching path, Sin can branch from left (or right) to mid section of its spec tree which is cool, but Sub can’t for example ever reach deeper daggers without going through the AoE abilities. So if we wanted to use that on ST fight, we have several dead talent points to do so.
Long story short the lack of branching path seems to discourage experimentation.
I do like that we can theoretically obtain abilities outside our spec through the class, and reinforce our core ones through our spec trees however, thats good keep that up.
Lastly to echo other comments; stop giving classes party / raid wide stuff that could feel broken; Outlaw should be fun for what it does, not because it goes CD reduction to people. Remove the raid-wide stuff once and for all so we can bring the players and not the classes.
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Is it possible for us to get some sort of WIP talent calculator? Either my brain is small or it’s not explained well, but I can’t wrap my head around how the talent tree works without fiddling with something myself.
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I am glad to see Death Chakram stay. It was the most aesthetically and thematically pleasing covenant ability for hunters. It is unfortunate that it shares a choice node with Chakram.
Chakram has been a dead talent for years because of the row it has been on. I think Death Chakram should stay where it is, and Chakram be moved to Survival tree but not be the same ability it is now. Chakram has a unique/cool animation that Blizzard should capitalize on but hasn’t as it continues to go up against talents that are typically better.
For Survival, I think Aspect of the Eagle doesn’t aesthetically make sense (it throws a magical green eagle out of your weapon) for a class that prides itself on using an array of weapons and gadgets: crossbows, bombs, traps, and polearms. For Chakrams, This could work in several different ways and could even halfway appease the “bring ranged survival back” community:
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Aspect of the Eagle could be replaced with Chakram’s animation (so you throw chakrams in place of your raptor strike/mongoose bite).
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Aspect of the Eagle could be replaced with a new Chakram that is a toggle that could be kept on for 5% less damage - similar to the warrior stance tradeoff where prot took 10% less damage but did 10% less or fury did 10% more damage but they took 10% more damage. Or a passive, range-specific replacement of your auto attacks (as in, once you’re out of melee range, your auto attacks with your melee weapon are automatically replaced with throwing chakrams), but still at a penalty (because I think Survival should overall still be a melee spec).
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Make Chakram a castable ability similar to fireball or shadowbolt that would make up both the melee auto attack damage and raptor strike/mongoose bite damage and costs focus - this would resolve both option 1’s issue of raptor strike/mongoose bite now being ranged but your auto attacks still being melee, and option 2’s issue of your auto attacks now being ranged but your raptor strike/mongoose bite still being melee. They can now be ranged - if they choose the talent and stand still to cast it.
Overall, I think hunter looks good. I’m glad to see butchery now accessible, too. It was another dead talent going up against guerilla tactics, but was also an aesthetically neat looking ability like Chakram.
2 Likes
Some additional things that I think could be iterated upon after having some more time with the trees:
Beast Mastery
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Wailing Arrow having very strong single target pre-requisites has made putting together various M+ minded builds awkward. It’s challenging to imagine any M+ build that wouldn’t want WA so if it is going to be tied to a specific node chain it should be one that’s focused more so on AOE. Even moving WA a bit to the right and creating an additional straight line down from Murder of Crows would free things up allot.
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Stomp is in a similarly awkward spot albeit less extreme. It feels like it would be more synergistic off the Beast Cleave line, potentially between Barbed Wrath and Qa’Pla with a connecting line down from Wild Call. You could put some Kill Command related talent in it’s place on the left side and to make both sides more coherent. Personally I would put some variation of Bloodseeker from the survival tree in that spot.
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Dire Pack feels like it’s missing text so I don’t want to criticize it too hard, but based on the current wording it’s obviously far too weak to justify making any investment to get. Personally I would test out things like “Any active Dire beasts now also obey your Kill command” or " Kill Command deals Y% increased DMG for each beast you control" Some kind of big payoff for what the rest of that side of the tree is encouraging.
2 Likes
Wowhead has running talent calculators:
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Oh neat, I didn’t realize. Thanks!
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On the Survival Hunter talent tree.
Frenzy Strikes: Crave Reduces the remaining cooldown on Wildfire Bomb by 1 sec for each target hit, up to 5.
What if I dont take Wildfire Bomb and I need this talent to get Coordinated Assault? There is no use for Frenzy Strikes in this event. If I want to skip Frenzy Strikes to choose Coordinated Assault I have to spend more points since the other 2 paths to get Cord Assault require 3 points…
I also wonder who and how these talent trees were made. It feels like it was separate teams per class with some guy above them all that gave an approval on them.
The hunter spec trees all felt “skinny” and at first I couldn’t figure out why. Then I noticed they all have 15-16 multi-point talents eating up a lot of their points. All the other classes released have like 10 multi-point talents. All rogue trees have zero choice nodes.
There’s obvious patterns to each class’s trees.
Look at Subtlety’s tree next to Survival’s tree.
Subtlety has 6 multipoint talents, Survival has 16.
Subtlety has 44 unique talents, Survival has 31.
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True, they should put some choice nodes in the Rogue trees… it’s really silly how all of them don’t have any choice nodes, but the rest of the classes have.
With Rogues you don’t have to take 1 ability at the exclusion of another, rather unfair.
Also the same with multipoint talents, Survival is basically choked by them, sub and combat have no 3pointers. Again… unfair.
Rogues seem to be in a much better place than the rest of the trees, not just Hunters.
It almost seems like some bias was involved… jk jk… or am I??
I’m not asking for every class to be the same point wise, but there are extremes.
They should strive for some medium like:
- 1 pointers - 30 (27-33)
- 2 pointers - 7 (5-8)
- 3 pointers - 3 (2-4) … near the bottom to make sure we can’t get all 3 capstones, like Assasination tree
Make some variation sure, but compensate for it.
Choice nodes… again, have them be like 3-4 per spec tree, maybe 2-3 per class.
Idk how Rogues have gotten away with 0 in the Class tree and 0 in all the Spec trees.
Sneaky Rogues…
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Wowhead has one
Aye, the pathing is a bit odd on the Sub tree. Since you have to go through the AoE stuff to get what’s basically the current rank 2 Evisc, it seems they intend the AoE stuff to be mostly required.
At first glance, this seemed fine, since every spec has to pick stuff. But as you said, it feels like a lot of points to go through, and makes the tree kind of top-heavy due to both lack of points and paths.
That we must take Replicating Shadows to get back r2 Evisc could also be annoying with Rupture cleaving/splashing on to blind/sap/sheep targets.
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Please add a Rogue talent to the class tree that replaces Slice and Dice with a passive. Bringing Silce and Dice back as baseline/mandatory for every Rogue spec in Shadowlands really detracted from my enjoyment of the class this expansion. I get the desire to have it baseline, but please give us an alternative passive replacement so those that aren’t looking for more micromanagement can have the option to not have to deal with Slice and Dice upkeep.
2 Likes
Rogue Thoughts:
- Having to spec Assassination to keep our de-enrage utility is the opposite of the proposed design philosophy that classes shouldn’t feel they have to run a certain spec to bring the required utility.
- Restless Crew, probably same comment. It should be raid wide and not-stackable, at a minimum, otherwise balancing it will be a nightmare. And spec locking a strong buff like this is antithetical to the stated class utility design goal.
- What utility could possibly compete with Restless Crew in the other specs? Anthropic Poison for Assassin and nothing for Sub? Shrouded in darkness for Sub, a 6min cd version of Druid’s roar? My friends, neither of those are really in the same league.
- The Pirate theme with Outlaw remains non-optional. Get away from forcing Roll the Bones and especially give Pistol Shot / Between the Eyes non-firearm options via glyph or make them optional. It’s so unwanted and so polarizing. You would never force all MM or BM hunters to use firearms over bows, don’t keep doing it to Rogues.\
- As others have said, this is the perfect opportunity to use talent trees to bring Combat back. One tree for Pirate stuff apparently someone likes, and one tree for those of us who want to play Rogues.
- Audacity is the perfect kind of talent to make this split. Instead of being a proc after pistol shot, it should be an alternative way to consume pistol shot procs, so you can have ambush players and pistol shot players.
- In the spirit of hating firearms and thus pistol shot on Rogues, it is a shame to see Killing Spree in the Pistol Shot / Between the Eyes tree.
- Sepsis should refresh the CD on Vanish if it completes, rather than giving one use of an ability as if it were from stealth. It would be so much cleaner and have so much more synergy with the “after opening” talents in each tree. It should have done this in shadowlands frankly.
- Nothing on the last row for subtlety is remotely worth considering in PvE.
- Shadowmist and Heavy Hitter use the “anima charged combo point” style from Echoing Reprimand that everyone hated. It plays awful, we didn’t like it, and here it is now on 2 brand new abilities (plus we still keep Echoing Reprimand).
- The idea behind shadowmist is cool, but spawning some dark puddle you have to go find in the middle of combat during shadowdance where you need to maximize every gcd for your burst cycle is kind of toxic. Remember how everyone hated that Pelogos made them pick up a bunch of glowing blue orbs during their burst window? This is that but worse. Suggest changing this to drop after shadow dance ends (in the theme of Lingering Shadow right above it), and have it empower your abilities for a short time so that the damage drop after leaving Dance doesn’t feel so bad. Let us look for this dark blob on the floor while our energy is repooling.
- Deep in the rogue tree on the Assassin side we have Leeching poison, early in the tree we have Iron Stomach, but there is no Soothing Shadows anywhere? Perhaps that would make for a great early-on choice node, so leveling Rogues can pick the upkeep method of their choice?
6 Likes
I don’t see any weapon requirements on any of these abilities. Does this mean they are ending the practice of weapon locking specs? Does this mean dagger outlaw, Sword sub and assassination may finally be a reality?
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this is what i worry the most about - hope i dont HAVE to play with it.
i hated it.
also worried outlaw will remain target capped - shivers
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Spent all night looking at the hunter tree and i still cant put my finger on how this was laid out.
multishot needs to be baseline for both mm and bm and beastcleave/ trickshots moved to that spot.
trueshot so low on the talent tree makes things more frustrating than fun build making.
barrage being forced on you so you can get master marksmen feels really bad. ( and prefer barrage just be removed, it causes pain in pugs )
serpentshot trickery being a double point talent feels bad.
killing blow talent needs to be moved and tied into either deathblow or dead eye. its weird having to select that talent to get multishot aswell. ( and if we replace multishot with trickshots anyway, will make it even more weird. )
MM doesnt have any bottom tier talents that feel really impactful like the other trees have shown, double tap being put at the bottom and not getting a talent like mms tier piece currently seems like a missed opportunity.
Our tree feels pretty empty and has a bunch of stuff about kill shot, but then we dont even get black arrow ??
I really hope this tree gets a major overhaul, this was a major let down.
5 Likes
Have you tried actually making a good build for pvp that gets both deeper stratagem’s on wowhead’s calc? That’s the issue with blizzard just putting things out like this things look a lot better when you don’t have to put points in a tree and make a build around things more so with how lockup the rogue trees are.