WoD was great as well. For pvp anyway.
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You wanna a terrible paladin? MoP. Terrible healing, terrible mobility, terrible damage and you had to use inquisition basically making your damage useless when it wasnt up, top gameplay lmao. It was hands down worse than cata pally in every aspect.
Also they never removed the judgment buff and gave our mastery passive damage increase.
truth but if im not mistaken we had to choose between empowered seals and final veridict, final veridict being the 1st pick almost always.
nop ret was better than legion ret, colossal smash judgement was never good gameplay.
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The statement is soo delusional that even a “nop” came subconsciously.
Mop ret damage was garbage and the difference of the colossal judgment to inquisition is literally none aside the fact the judgment didnt made u waste HP, in fact it gave you more.
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judgement didnt give you hp in legion. something tells me you never played legion ret pally. also btw no one likes inquisition. i would edit this message specifially with why you are wrong for liking colossal judgement mechanic. but its probably better to wait for your Degen reply
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Unfortunaly for you i did main ret in legion, so quit beign presumptous.
Btw, Inquisition was THE CORE GAMEPLAY of ret mop you cant have one argument saying it was good and then saying its bad lmao.
Being presumptuous isnt a virtue my dude.
2x times in a row you done that already.
alrighty, now here are the reasons why you are wrong.
mop ret is better than legion ret. inquiz was the core mechanic of ret during that time 100%, thats the only thing you are right about. however there is a huge hole with your argument. inquiz had 100% uptime, it sucked and acted like rogue SND but it lasted indefinitely, played it right and you only had to spec 3 hp every blue moon to refresh it.
legion ret is hot garbage because judgement windows was 8 seconds long and judgment cd was about 12ish seconds, didnt generate hp, made you want to generate 5 hp before hand and shove as many finishers as you can before the debuff expires. this game play wasnt liked by anyone. this led to wet noodle dam outside of judgement windows, and promoted unfun pooling gameplay because you could only use your finishers at 5 hp so you wouldnt overcap hp and or waste potential uptime on your judgement window. also guess what, our mastery only worked with judgement back then. which means it was absolutely useless outside our judgement window. depending on your haste, you can probably only fit 3-4 finishers in that window IF you had 100% uptime on boss because the cd of our generators were (cs 4.5 cd, BOJ was 12 seconds, judgment was 12 seconds, and wake of ashes was 30 seconds.) if you had to move or do mechanics, you wasted your window. congrats.
i rather have forced inquisition gameplay because it has 100% uptime and our mastery actually was useful 100% of the time, instead of having to pool 5 hp (cause again judgement DIDNT give hp during that time), wait for my judgment to get out of cd, and pray i dont have to do something in those 8 seconds. then repeat because my mastery didnt do anything outside of said window.
if you liked legion ret, good for you! now go talk about legion ret with the one other person who liked it. while the rest of us discuss
the fact you made me defend inquisition is horrible, and goes to show you didnt main legion ret, or dont understand why the majority of people hated it. how a majority of people would prefer the lesser of two evils over anything remotely close to legion ret.
wrath>cata>bfa> mop>sl> tbc>classic> legion
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Tell me didn’t play Ret during MoP without telling me.
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You had to refresh it, so, wrong.
Then why more people started playing ret at this time?
Yes you had to time your HP and judgment, it wasnt exactly a hard thing to do btw, the rotation flow just gravitate toward that as it still does now btw, in case you didnt notice judgment still increases your damage.
The rotation of legion you claim to hate didnt change much except now we have either kyrian or necro extra cds.
You had to refresh it.
If you consider inquisition useful because, as you say, it had 100% uptime then you should LOVE our current mastery because guess what, work exactly the same lmao but you dont need to waste gcds for something that you obviously need to keep up all the time.
I dont think you understand, ret mop WAS INQUISITION, everythign he did outisde it means he was doing to wrong. There is no arguing around that. If you like mop ret you like inquisition and if you like inquisition it means your taste is horrendous.
Hell they tried to bring it back and guess what? people avoided it.
all 3 of you?
Considering how ret is popular atm i think you living inside a bubble isnt going to change anything. At all.
But ya keep hoping for seal of rightneous return and the old crappy jdugment system that will be a blast
You do know you can literally armory my pally and know you are wrong, but you choose to be both wrong and presumptuous right? Or you dont know how to find an alt either?
You have two chars at area 52 and another two at moonguard, took me 5 seconds.
Wrath you had 2 skills and judgment. If it didnt hit hard you would say it was horrendous.
Cata onwards uninronically paladins started having an actual rotation due HP instead of facesmashing. Mop was a gimped version of cata pally, simple like that.
Legion and SL have some differences but are pretty close to the point i wonder if you even tried to be objective lmao. I dont see how bfa pally would be much different either but i didnt play much bfa at all.
Classic and tbc all the rotations paladins had was auto attack, CS(tbc) and seal twisting which is in fact an exploit and superclunky lmao.
I did main ret from wrath to legion.
Feel free to disagree but saying mop was remotely close to an enjoyable gameplay for ret is at best quesitonable. Do you know why? Because it was completely changed by next expansion.
Hell i hated it to the point i abandoned my pally entirely and the paladin forums werent exactly a very happy place either aside the wierd dwarf paladin which was the only guy defending it.
did inquiz ever dropped from your character? answer that. no? then its 100% uptime
im tlaking about legion ret you ape, not sl ret.
if inquiz ever dropped from your character at any point, you were bad. no exceptions
im not arguing that, im just saying that inquiz was better than legion master judgement windows. i rather have my mastery be useful all the time during wings or out of wings. then have it limited to a 8 second judgement window that can go horrendously wrong at any given moment. you are trying to say that legion mastery/judgement is better than our current mastery and any other form of ret paladin. which is plain wrong.
projecting
okay you main a paladin, then your just stupid
legion was just a terrible expack for ret. accept it
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Yep it could drop.
Yet you did downrate sl a lot too, which makes me wonder if you can be objective thats all. You change the argument as conviently as possible lol.
And here is where i stoped reading, second time you downright insult. In all fairness all it does is making you like one these super shy and quiet guys that rages over the internet using racist slurs but get stomped daily by random people and do nothing, lol.
I am not responsible for your education although its crystal clear the ones which were responsible failed nor i am beign paid to treat you.
Also have some responsability, since you did sign terms on how to behave so you can post here and play the game.
Good luck in your future treatment.
if it ever dropped, then idk what to tell you
SL did improve from bfa, so it doesnt go higher in any tier list. also its SL.
ape? isnt a racial slur. you are failing to understand simple concepts and present me with arguments that dont make sense or purposely misunderstanding me. that makes me think you are the devolution of the human race
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You’re either getting the expansions mixed up or you didn’t play either. Because there was very little difference between MoP Ret and WoD Ret(other than some minor changes, but the overall playstyle was still the same). Legion on the other hand was an expansion that completely changed Ret and made it worse.
And yes MoP Ret was an extreme improvement over Cata Ret. It was renownedly praised for being so by virtually every paladin player during the MoP beta(myself included)
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The healing for Holy was excellent in MoP over Cata as well, which is one of the big reasons why I’m hoping for Denounce and a MoP/WoD-style Holy Radiance spell to make a comeback in Dragonflight.
But there was one thing I didn’t like about MoP: the devs invented new ways to get spells onto our spellbars in MoP: having them trainable only if we’re the right spec. That let them take abilities that used to be baseline across all three specs and make them spec-specific, like Inquisition (which was actually a terrific holy power finisher for Holy), Consecration, and Holy Wrath—that left Holy without a decent multi-target damage ability until Legion.
Hopefully the talent system in Dragonflight means we can get off-spec abilities we like to round out our kits, and we get the awesome older abilities unpruned, so we can get the best of both worlds in terms of class design!
Uh, wrong. Rotation was less annoying, wod didnt have the always buged guardian or inquisition and even had good talents to pick on isntead of stuf flike holy prism lmao and yet did more damage. I mean you sure you remember it? lol.
It wasn’t, at all. Ret participation tanked drastically in both raiding and pvp. And the forums were in turmoil.
I mean you could argue everyone participation tanked because mop was soo great it did nothing but lost players, gained a lilttle back due wod announcement but we all know how well it ended.
All 3 of them lol
Ret worse state was undoubtely mop.
That’s barely a difference to Rets overall playstyle. Unlike going from cata to Mop or WoD to legion(eww).
That talent row stayed the same from MoP to WoD(which was Holy Prism, Light’s Hammer and Execution Sentence). An Holy Prism was pretty good for pvp. I’d certainly like to have it again, as it was very effective against certain classes.
The success of an expansion has little to do with how well a class plays. Participation can be for all matter of reasons, but the main one was a lack of content. There was a few others, like Rep being locked behind dailies, having to pvp for the legendary cloak and so on. It certainly wasn’t because Ret was made worse than Cata
Turmoil? the main arguments going on back then in MoP was mainly a dislike of Inquisition(which was new to MoP, its was in Cata too). But then there’s always been a few regressives wanting to get rid of holy power too.
You weren’t on the forums back then.
I been playing around with the Dragon Flight preview Talent trees. It does give me some concerns but also some intriguing possible potential. Especially if the Druid tree is anything to go by.
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Not always, you could play Final Verdict and be fine.
But Empowered Seals into casters in 3s was very good, made you way more durable and even more mobility and damage into them, and you didn’t lose on damage since TV was physical, on cloth and leather and it was doing high damage
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I pretty much did dungeons, scenarios lfr and normal raids(think they called flex raids at the end of mop when i got the BoA axe from hellscream) and arenas. You seem more like a hardcore raider.
However guardian and inquisition were not a “barely” difference specially if you did pvp, they were horrendously clunky. Key word, specially, it also sucked drastically on mobile pve fights so you had one of your major buff dps cds to be completely negletected because you also needed to wait for guardian stacks in pve to a reasonable amount. They were as bad in cata too but other classes getting good buffs and more utility and ret losing stuff while never getting fixed wasnt an ideal situation.
Wod was a damn blessing compared to mop as far as combat goes imo.
Effective against certain classes? it either did a small damage or a small healing plus a even smaller damage on you.
It was the best choice in the slot, but it was definately not good or desired specially when you compared warlocks, hunters, warriors etc new talents and we got… a laser with a 30sec cd or more.
Eh, disagree.
Classes mechanichs also plays a vital role on the success of expansions. By the end of wod wow had 3 expansions that did ntohing but declined the playerbase, no wonder they revamped a lot of classes in legion, which was in fact ther last “succesfull” exp.
Damage was bad outside wings. Like, really bad. Surviability in cata was also far superior with very large wog crits and the passive shield.
I dunno why you have to pretend i am trying to lie or anything, i was here and disliked ret a ton at the time.
I even remeber people rerolling and lobster saying how paladins were in a good position so they wouldnt get nerfed. And next patch they got nerfed lol.
I just dont remeber it not being the best choice 90% of the time. Sure empwoered seals had a niche but was soo damn cluncky and had to waste two gcds.
Not talking about damage alone either, FV was ranged and paladin mobility always sucked so people got FV for most fights.
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But not having them didn’t drastically change Ret’s playstyle. It was still Jugdement, Exorcism, Crusader Strike and holy power spenders. So core was still the same going from MoP to WoD. Unlike going from Cata, were only Crusader Strike generated holy power(unless you had the tier bonus, which only came out towards the end of the expansion)and every thing else was heavily RNG to proc Divine Purpose(which a lot of people didn’t like). In MoP Jugdement, Exorcism, Crusader Strike and Hammer of Wrath all generated holy power. It move away from being heavily RNG and Divine Purpose became a talent. Which is a significant change in the playstyle.
MoP did have more and better mobility options over Cata. But none of what you stated there made Cata Ret better then MoP Ret.
Its damage and healing were all right given its CD. It also couldn’t get purged or cleansed like Execution Sentence could. And it always did both damage and healing. But its real benefit was against those certain classes. Well if you used it correctly or got lucky. But it would make a huge difference if you did when fighting against them. I’ll give a hint, it wasn’t about how much damage or healing it did. It was what it did when targeting yourself with it.
While how classes play is important, its not as important as having content to do. Or Vanilla and TBC wouldn’t have been that successful otherwise, given the horrendous state many classes found themselves in compared to others. Legion was no different in this matter and its success was largely due to having content to do and a decent storyline to keep players engaged. Ret was actually worse off in legion, losing a massive chunk of mobility, survivability and a whole host of utility.
Because at the end of day no matter how perfectly classes can play. If you have nothing to do or feel compelled or engage to do(because you enjoy it)then you’re not going to play it.
This wasn’t a new issue with Ret
This wasn’t necessarily true, this had more to do with nerfs to MoP Ret’s output rather than it abilities.
Also The large Word of Glory crits and emergency shield only came out towards the end of Cata(as a response to Ret’s survivability being crippled due to the Cooldown being added to Word of Glory). And coming out that late in the expansion meant it was highly unlikely to get nerfed. Unlike MoP Ret’s capability which started out strong and ended up getting nerfed.
The advantages MoP Ret had, was no Cooldown on Word of Glory and the ability to generate holy power at range. You also had more options, like Selfless Healer, which was just as a powerful a heal, cost no holy power and great for team play. Eternal Flame which was good for solo world pvp and duels(my personal favorite). And Sacred Shield which was good when running with a healer or raiding. Then you also had Holy Prism and Stay of Execution for a bit extra.
Of course there are advantages to having a large emergency shield proc. Especially when being Crowd Controlled locked out and burst down. But its out of your control when to use it. Meaning it could trigger when you really didn’t need it, vs when you did and it was now on Cooldown.
I was more referring to the beta forums. But I don’t remember you ever posting. Unless you’re Agincourt, you kinda remind me of him.
But Lobster was largely right at the time(not that I agreed with him on everything). MoP still played better than Cata did, which is largely the point I’m making.
Anyway I think we’ve derailed this thread enough debating which now irrelevant expansion version of Ret was best(it was WoD). I think it would be better to focus on parts of those expansions that you liked about Ret. Like the emergency shield Ret had in Cata and why something like that would be a good addition to Dragonflight.