I’m not assuming anything. I’m simply stating that what Xe’ra would do is not necessarily what the army will do anymore. There will be those who cling fanatically to Xe’ra’s ideals, those who reject them, and every opinion in between. It only takes one person in the upper ranks going “You know what? This worked before. Give them a shot.” to change everything.
You want warlocks to be an accepted part of society or you want them to take in demons, instead of just having warlocks be as they always were, tolerated but told to largely shut up in civil society.
That is my big problem, you are destroying the class story itself with wanting to have them accepted, rather than have the warlocks be what they are. Outcasted members of society that are only tolerated on the field of battle.
There is no need for a big story about warlocks gaining acceptance, a big part of their class is them not being fully accepted into society in the first place despite them fighting for good.
6 Likes
I don’t “want” anything other than a logical explanation for a race that hates demons and everything that has to do with demons suddenly being able to roll a warlock. As I said earlier, I would ideally rather not have draenei warlocks, but if we’re going to make them a thing, then we have to write a logical explanation for them.
Bear in mind the scenario I came up with is not one of acceptance, but tolerance. Velen and those close to him would be distrustful of the eredar deciding to join them, as would the rank and file. This said, Velen spent a good chunk of time with Illidan so he would likely not be as hardline against it. Rather than exterminate them, he’d probably try to keep them on a short leash.
Put differently, the eredar in this scenario would be in a similar position the forsaken found themselves in after the Wrathgate. It would be on them to prove whether the clemency they got from Velen was well-placed or not.
2 Likes
They already tolerate warlocks of the other Alliance races.
None of the Alliance races can work their magic in civil society without being slapped with newspapers for being bad boys.
I really don’t see why the other races should get a different reasoning, when we already have an overarching reasoning.
There already is a logical explanation, it is not a class that is liked by any… keep your powers on the low when in civil socity, and shut up. That is basically it. I don’t really get all of this: “Draenei needs explanation as to why they would be warlocks” because they want to be warlocks, the answer is simple, and warlocks generally don’t care, they go into the profession knowing people dislike it. Then people want an explanation as to why the draenei would accept draenei warlocks, the answer is again simple, they won’t… but again, warlocks don’t care, they go into a profession knowing people dislike it.
The story is already there, have been there for years. We don’t need a repeat of it for every single race-class combo.
The worst thing blizzard can do, is make individual race-class combo questlines. Because that’ll risk legitimising the class as an accepted part of the cultural norms of the races - which is NOT what warlocks are. We don’t need a story telling us that races hate them, we already know, we also do not need a story telling us that they are tolerated, we already know.
Story has been told already.
2 Likes
Because every race in WoW is different culturally.
If we introduced a race that was entirely magic users because they have a cultural taboo against using their fists or melee weapons in general, you need to come up with a damn good reason for why you’d want to give that race access to the monk or warrior classes.
Again, you’re ignoring the cultural side of the discussion for some reason. We’re not dealing with FFXIV races whose entire identity and outlook is shaped by their city-state and geographic locale. Several of the WoW races have cultural baggage that needs to be kept in mind instead of be ignored just because it’s inconvenient. If you have a race that hates demons and anything that has to do with demons, but then you want to give that same race access to a class that deals with demons and their associated fel energy, you need to come up with a damn good reason for why this is the case. You can’t fall on generalities because, again, the WoW races have different cultures.
2 Likes
Eh, blizzard could have fooled me.
I know they used to be.
Like when blizzard gave a thorough explanation as to why all races suddenly picked up monks and the pandaren philosophy, of course.
Hardly!
You seem to be ignoring what I am saying.
All of the races dislike warlocks… warlocks are, at best, tolerated at the field of battle. We know this.
Guess what draenei dislike? Warlocks… guess what story would be told: “Hey, we dislike you… go away” well, that is not something new to the warlock story. Warlocks are not something that is culturally normal in any of the races, which is why it is so weird to me, as a matter of fact, it is highly illogical that one would need a story to justify a certain race-class combo.
We already know the story, they dislike warlocks, but warlocks will still do warlock stuff because they are warlocks and do not care, we know… why repeat the story constantly? It is redundant.
Where I would want a story justification, is if we had something that was actually impossible for the race, I mean totally impossible. Take Dragon Age as an example.
In Dragon Age, you have the dwarves who are not able to be mages, at all, because to be a mage in Dragon Age, you need a connection to the fade, and when you have a connection to the fade you dream. Dwarves do not dream, they do not have a connection to the fade, therefor they can not be mages. There is nothing like that in World of Warcraft.
3 Likes
Right, if this was a table top RPG (or a really well scripted single player CRPG) then your interactions with NPCs would reflect the social stigmas surrounding your class, race, alignment, whatever.
It is not. Lore-wise it would make sense for there to have been Draenei warlocks for years already - there are always outliers and it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to have a short questline illustrating what a rarity this is - but to act like this is the worst story decision WoW has ever made isn’t even laughable, it’s simply tiresome.
1 Like
Can we like stop bumping this thread? I don’t want the devs to think that people dislike the idea of warlocks for all races.
Like, sure, some people do, but they’re the minority.
Can’t wait to roll a Lightforged warlock.
1 Like
No
1 Like
I watched that ship sail years ago. Where were you?
You could mute it.
I hope that the draenei races get more options for customization, especially with warlock. Skin colours, makeup, hair and claws! Need some demonic black tipped fingers with long nails. It’s going to be fun for me, I’ve been wanting an eredar warlock for years.
6 Likes
To be honest, I think Night Elf Warlocks are also a pretty massive problem, as well. It feels like Blizzard is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, when I think a huge appeal of WoW’s races was always how they FELT unique.
The way they seem to be doing things now, “race” is literally just appearance. They seem to be pushing the mindset of “everyone is the same, they just look a little different”, which again, isn’t inherently bad design, but it’s absolutely not what has made Warcraft unique all these years.
Again, races are their cultures in WoW, and their available classes are an extension of that, a carry over from the legacy of the RTS games where each race had different units and playstyles.
I feel like this was the opportunity that “Allied Races” brought to the mix. Use those as a way of “filling in the gaps” to people wanting certain body types (because I also agree, an Eredar Warlock sounds cool).
This is just lazy, and basically communicates that Warcraft lore can be completely disregarded on a whim.
And again, that’s not even touching on the fact that Lightforged are infused with the Light itself, which fundamentally isn’t compatible with using Fel magic.
Like I said before, I honestly feel like they would be better off retconning “Lightforged Draenei” into customization options for existing Draenei, and replacing them with “Eredar” as an allied race, which totally fits the theme of being a Warlock.
4 Likes
This is old news.
Blizzard have disregarded lore ever since WoW’s release.
Nothing in lore ever stated this. We know that one can cleanse the other, but not that it is not compatible. We know that demons can have trouble working with arcane though, or atleast, demon hunters have trouble doing arcane stuff, but that is about it.
new dude shows up in the Draenei area like: Hey! I can teach you all how to be warlocks its super awesome and nothing can ever go wrong! Come on you guys will love it! And the Draenei are all like “Omg wow that sounds super cool and we can tottally trust this guy!”
Meanwhile the guy is looking like this going:
1 Like
I mean, this is exactly what people who want an explanation want.
When in reality, the explanation to draenei warlocks already exist, just like it exists for every other race already.
They are not liked. They keep their mouths and fel magic shut in civil society and only uses them away from society and in battle.
We have the story, it is already written.
It is also important to remember, if you like or play a void elf, you are basically supporting the “outlier” argument.
There are always outliers, and it does not matter how small in number of outliers are, they exist and should be playable.
4 Likes
No, we don’t. The player just needs to reason why THEIR character got access to the class.
‘Magic McSpellington’ is a member of a race that eschews physical contact with their foes. Everything is done through magic and spellcraft. Yet, one day, Magic McSpellington happened upon a catastrophe; a place where their magic could not save them, but physical might did. A big fluffy bear-person beat down a monster with just their fists and then smiled and offered Magic McSpellington tea. Upon accepting, Magic McSpellington inquired about the strange method they used. The bear-person offered to teach Magic McSpellington, and with a great deal of curiosity, Magic McSpellington accepted. Some time later, they’ve mastered the basics, and have a hunger for more of this physical technique.
See? It’s easy. The culture loses none of its ‘character’, and the character gets agency in their own story beyond ‘no you just can’t’.
‘In general, Draenei hate demons and would never practice Warlock powers.’ You justify generalities in one direction but forbid them in the other? Hypocrisy at its highest.
PCs are anomalies of their culture. They may choose to follow the path of their forebears, or choose to reject it and pursue their own paths. The culture does not need to change to reflect this at all.
10 Likes
But not every individual of a race is a slave to that culture.
Individuals who saw other people fighting with their fists and thought it was hella cool
And yet it’s been long enough since the end of the third war when the modern horde and alliance came into existence that someone could’ve been born knowing no other existence and be an adult now. A tauren could’ve been raised in Orgrimmar. Is now an adult and decided to become a warlock because was always intrigued by the drag and what goes on there.
A Draenei orphan from TBC could’ve been adopted by a human warlock and taught the ways of being a warlock.
And yet neither of those things are required for someone to betray their culture.
1 Like
Are you entirely sure you aren’t already one?
The emphasis on the word “are” in the subject line reads funny.
1 Like
Because the cultural taboo against warlocks is arguably stronger with the draenei than it would be with humans, gnomes or dwarves. It’s the difference of what “loss of face” means to one culture vs another. This is why I say you can’t fall back on generalities for this one.
This is why, despite not wanting draenei warlocks, I would still be in favor of having just something written to show they have a presence in the world. I don’t agree with there being draenei warlocks for years, though. The draenei have been pretty monolithic in their war against the legion and their relation to the light. After Legion is a different story because that was a big turning point for a lot of things in-world, which is why I would have used that as a starting point if I had been in the writing room.
It’s almost funny how many writing opportunities Legion has presented, some of which were not capitalized on.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but you’d need a timeskip of about a half millennium. 500 years should be enough time for the current Azeroth to turn into a cosmopolitan setting like FFXIV’s Hydaelin. Where race doesn’t really matter, as what matters is your occupation and what city-state you live in. Of course, it’d have to be a peaceful 500 years with zero wars breaking out to give these new social norms time to form and solidify.
What you’re pushing is a garbage-tier copout. So yes, you do need a damn good explanation for any changes in-world.
Player Characters may be non-entities in the grand scheme of things, but they are still a reflection of the world in which they inhabit. They don’t get to do something unless it’s already been done before (read: established through lore) or a lot of in-world exceptions are made (though this only works in tabletop RPGs because of their extremely malleable nature). That doesn’t include in-world adversity due to being outside the norm (see: half orcs and seldurine drow in DnD). Which is why saying things like
as if it were some shield from criticism is nothing more than another garbage-tier copout and is (at best) just an excuse to not do the necessary legwork.
The draenei have been pretty much a monolith when it comes to the Burning Legion and anything that has to do with them. Anyone within their ranks that decided to join the Legion and/or practiced their ways has been put to the sword, and this has been the case since TBC. You’d have to be blind to miss that the draenei would have a stronger reaction to one of their own becoming a warlock as opposed to humans, dwarves, gnomes, etc. Hence why you need writing to back it up.
You’re basically arguing for there to be less writing, and that bothers me.
2 Likes