Dracthyr And Blizzard’s “New Philosophy”

[Vaelian-silver-hand (Vaelian)]

@Cyous-area-52

It’s wholly different from the literally image of a dragon building up it’s Fire Breath

Not really, could easily work the same way.
How is BOS not a dragon breath? It’s a dragon’s breath attack, warriors even shout like dragons but it’s instant.

So you just want a big useless inhale timer?

@Cyous-area-52

If you think this isn’t important enough to be considered a critical element of dragons, then you’re simply wrong.

It’s not and you’re simply wrong!

See, I can do it too.

@Baeddan-wyrmrest-accord

I just wish that Dracthyr had the option to look like the Azure defender

The beefiness is great.
I’d posted the fan edit, that came out right after their edit, again in another thread because I still like it quite a bit as well. Head is better proportioned and they’ve got that nice V beefy upper body.

@Whiskeybuda-stormrage

Obviously it’s not exactly the same as what you’re saying

Yup, it’s a nicer setup for melee.

@Whiskeybuda-stormrage

Sindragosa is literally a reference to a dead dragon and the ability is designed to mimic a frost dragon’s breath. Knowing your lore is extremely important.

@Baeddan-wyrmrest-accord

Or this change would be nice

Proportions feel a bit better there as well.

@Cyous-area-52

“Breath of the Frostwyrm”

Still about a dragon…

Demon hunters have their breath attack as well. Works fine. It’s even channeled.
Is the one on Monks any different?

@Lathelan-wyrmrest-accord

However, I can’t forgive them adding a whole race that straight up can’t perform one of the holy trinity’s role. That’s a MMORPG sin.

Really should open up the classes and do some nice visual themes where needed.
A dracthyr paladin would be kinda cool. Consecration could be a ring of flames or some such.
Dracthyr warrior should be a given.

The lack of any sort of defensive line to protect your casters feels odd.

[Whiskeybuda-stormrage]

@Cyous-area-52

That’s why I’m drilling down that need for a windup period. It’s so important to how the spell feels.

And we are just pointing out that there are ways that similar (not exactly) effects can be implemented for a melee/tank…

@Cyous-area-52

But does it translate to a good gameplay experience? Nope.

This is totally subjective and you have no evidence that people wouldn’t enjoy something like I described.

Also, none of what anyone is suggesting adding, or design for melee has to have any effect on the Evoker class how you want the fantasy to be. Clearly there is a large amount of players that like the idea of raking claws, biting teethe and being the big bulky armored scaled beast that protects your team.

I just don’t see why people think it’s going to ruin the thing that exist by expanding it to include things that lots of people seem to want.

Seriously, if you think a melee version of the dragon race fantasy will be bad, then don’t play it… that’s what the ranged version is there for.

But again… I don’t know why I have to keep saying this… If Blizzard is going to release a new RACE and only give it 1 class to play, it should cover all necessary ROLES in a game where you need all rolls to play a huge portion of the content.

If they choose to open up Dracthyr to other classes, that would eliminate the need for melee Evoker class.

If the new philosophy, which I’ve proven over and over again is what the Dev’s are claiming, is to “play how you want” because we’re opening new classes to more races, and cross faction play, and massive customizations, then it seems weird to ignore a huge chunk of the player base.

Also…. Did I wake up in a world were half the people don’t actually know anything about dragons.

Even Deathwing in Hots had melee attacks along side fire breath. Since when has dragons ever only been a ranged casting type fantasy?

@Cyous-area-52

BOS uses “Sindragosa” in name, but you can rename to “Breath of the Frostwyrm” and suddenly nothing changes.

And lastly, of course nothing changes because “Frostwyrm” still references dragons. But I get your point, you think that a dragon class wouldn’t feel good to play if you can’t hold down a button to build up power, then release said button to blow fire… I mean I totally know what you mean, that does sound like more fun than pressing a few buttons to build up a resource, and then press a different button to cast a spell that uses that resource over time. Completely different feel.

Havoc DH uses Eye Beam but a Vengeance DH uses Fel Devastation… I wonder if Blizzard could use something similar for a melee/tank Evoker… Hmmm… seems possible.

[Vaelian-silver-hand (Vaelian)]

@Whiskeybuda-stormrage

But I get your point, you think that a dragon class wouldn’t feel good to play if you can’t hold down a button to build up power, then release said button to blow fire…

That’d be a lot more fun than just building a meter. Holding a button just to build intensity.
It’d work great for other abilities on other classes as well. Warriors and dragon shouts.

I think it’d be a fantastic addition to hunters to mimic drawing your bow. Long hold full draws for max damage, but being able to do quick bursts while on the run and such.
The button hold and bows sounds like a great match.
Could say it’s the aiming for guns or some such.

@Whiskeybuda-stormrage

Vengeance DH uses Fel Devastation…

Yeah, it’s just breathing fire, and you’re even locked in place while doing so, having the button hold as part of the mechanic would be how you’d control how long you breathe for…especially if you decide you mistimed it and need to move. Release and go…

Then again, maybe Fel Devastation is another spot where the button hold would be a good addition.

[Cyous-area-52]

@Vaelian-silver-hand

So you just want a big useless inhale timer?

For melee gameplay, that’s exactly what I do not want.

@Vaelian-silver-hand

How is BOS not a dragon breath? It’s a dragon’s breath attack, warriors even shout like dragons but it’s instant.

I will give you an example from WOD.

Fury of Elune was literally BOS. It was the exactly same gameplay as BOS.

If I renamed “Breath of Sindgrosa” to “Fury of Sindragosa” would you need to change the Spell Visual? I’d argue you wouldn’t care, the gameplay of Death Knight is literally unrelated to the fantasy element of dragons. While Sindragosa is a dragon, Death Knights literally have no direct connection to Sindragosa. Death Knights can look to Frostwyrms for inspiration, but they are not bound by a “dragon fantasy.”

A literal dragon class IS bound by “dragon fantasy.” (This is my point.)

Do dragons exist without frontal breath attacks? Absolutely. But dragons in WoW are known for “Deep Breath” effects. Now we get into the heart of my argument.

Would you think less of a dragon class that had no breath attack? I’d argue yes.
Would you want a breath attack? I’d argue yes.

I’ve already established that I care about the “dragon fantasy.” I do want a breath attack. I want the feeling of “building up for a powerful dragon breath.” Do you get that feeling if you’re pooling resources? I’d argue not, because you can spend that resource on other things. So, in my opinion, you lose the epic feeling of a dragon’s breath if there’s no absolute, and direct build up.

And because I apparently care way too much about how a spell feels to press, I’ll end with this:

• Look at the Execute animation on Warriors. It’s an overhead smash. Does Execute look better now that it no longer the generic “2hd special” animation that their entire toolkit used in 2004?

Visuals are important. That cast time is important to the feel of a dragon’s attack.
Cast times in melee are awful. Ergo, there should be no cast times in melee.

I reconcile that a melee playstyle on a dragon-class should not exist because I am unwilling to give them a spell based on cast times. I would rather preserve the feeling of “dragon fantasy” on a dragon class.

Can it work? Of course, you can make anything work. But I will never agree to a cast time in melee.

[Vaelian-silver-hand (Vaelian)]

@Cyous-area-52

For melee gameplay, that’s exactly what I do not want.

Agreed. The button holding might be a good way to go though.

@Cyous-area-52

Fury of Elune was literally BOS. It was the exactly same gameplay as BOS.

Not sure what that spell even was. Name doesn’t sound familiar.

It’s still a dragon breath attack spell. It’s literally breathing frost out in front of you like a frostwyrm does.

In my book, death Knights are very entwined with the undead frostwyrm/dracolich fantasy. That’s my ideal mount for them. I’d really love to see updated versions with the dragon riding stuff for them.

All the spells are numbers with pretty visuals slapped on.
Anything can be made into anything, so I guess I’m missing the point. Breath of Sindragosqa is literally a dragon fantasy spell for the death knights. You could slap it right onto the Dracthyr and it’d be fitting. What’d be really neat for a breath attack would be customizing the elemental visual of the spell so your breath weapon can be whatever you want.

@Cyous-area-52

Would you think less of a dragon class that had no breath attack? I’d argue yes.
Would you want a breath attack? I’d argue yes.

Not really, I’d prefer to have one, but I’d happily make a black dragon warrior tank.
Being able to have an additional breath attack would be nice. Maybe a visual retheme of dragon shout to breath fire or your element of choice instead of the sonic visual or whatever it has.

@Cyous-area-52

Do you get that feeling if you’re pooling resources? I’d argue not, because you can spend that resource on other things.

Depends on the resource. Runic power and BOS, yes.
Hate and Fel Devastation…not so much as it builds much quicker. There’s less thought into it.
I do feel like I’m actively building something when building runic power for BOS. That’s why it already feels like what you’re describing. If it was just something you hit once in a while like the frostwyrm that flies over and breathes on stuff…then no. Then again, for a death knight dracthyr, could use the same spell and just have yourself fly over breathing

@Cyous-area-52

Look at the Execute animation on Warriors. It’s an overhead smash. Does Execute look better now that it no longer the generic “2hd special” animation that their entire toolkit used in 2004?

I didn’t even know the visual had changed.
It’s always been something I barely paid attention to other than smashing the button when it’s ready. Does it even have a cool visual to it?

@Cyous-area-52

I reconcile that a melee playstyle on a dragon-class should not exist because I am unwilling to give them a spell based on cast times.

Absolutely disagree.
There should have 100% been a melee spec or two.
The suggestions I’ve seen of having a spec for each of the dragon flights would have been fantastic.
black melee tank.
red melee dps.
blue ranged dps.
bronze/green heals.

That’d have covered all the bases and roles. It’d have been great.

Works great for druids. A melee tank spec for shaman would be a great addition.
Could have been a great way to go for evokers. And is absolutely the route I’d go for necromancers (1 melee and 3 caster specs).

Not real fond of the caster only aspect and even less fond of the dracthyr being class locked to Evoker. It’s stupid.

@Cyous-area-52

Can it work? Of course, you can make anything work.

Absolutely. The button holding charge up they’re adding in would have been a great way to go about it.

[Cyous-area-52]

@Vaelian-silver-hand

Absolutely disagree.

Because I’ve made a lot of posts in this topic.

I will agree to disagree.

I can imagine ways to make a dragon tank in WoW without a big breath attack. I strictly do not want a rotational ability like Fire Breath or Dream Breath to be part of a melee playstyle. I just don’t think it’ll be fun.

Most important, I think it’d be weird to just clone a spell and rename it to something dragon-themed. I don’t want a copy of Immolation Aura, or a mage’s Dragon Breath. I see those spells as incanted spells, but a dragon’s source for dragon dreath attacks is more “natural” than magic. (In the same way it’s natural to think a snake attack gives a poison debuff. I see dragon breath as the same as a snake’s venom.)

[Vaelian-silver-hand (Vaelian)]

@Cyous-area-52

I strictly do not want a rotational ability like Fire Breath or Dream Breath to be part of a melee playstyle. I just don’t think it’ll be fun.

We’ve already got two tanks that do this and it works just fine. It’s just an AoE.
Shockwave is mechanically the same thing, so that’s basically three.

Not a requirement for a dragon tank, but it’d work great.

Dragons are naturally tanks. Fire breathing tanks. The inability to play one is a big oversight.

@Cyous-area-52

I think it’d be weird to just clone a spell and rename it to something dragon-themed.

That’s basically what every spell is. Just some numbers with cool visuals slapped on.
The entire demon hunter ability set is basically visually rethemed abilities from other classes. Works fine. with enough of a cool visual, it wouldn’t be a big deal.

Pretty much every caster spec has some sort of bolt attack that’s barely different from another class other than the visual.

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

@Nicodemùs-stormrage

I’m expecting Blizzard to open up other classes to Dracthyr after Dragonflight.

Personally I was hoping the expansion to open up a second dragon-race, of the ‘Drakonid’ to be playable.

[Guttergrubs-lightninghoof]

They also foamed at the mouth about “class identity” in legion which was just the buzzword for pruning half your spellbook.