Over the past couple of months I’ve slowly come to realize how problematic CSAA really is for the overall health of the spec. Now I actually like CSAA, love it even, and don’t want to see it go completely (or at all). So I think we need to look at its forgotten sibling. TS.
Templar Strikes as an ability is ridiculous. It hits 150% harder than Final Verdict, and is still not worth using! Simming about 4% behind CSAA for me. So I propose redesigning TS to become a passive talent instead. Something like this.
[Templar Strikes]
Crusader Strike and Templar/Final Verdict deals an additional XX%(~20-30%) damage. Consecutive Crusader Strikes used within 5 seconds on each other hits your target twice.
This “solves” 2 issues. Spenders (Single target) being poor and Ret dealing too much damage from range (a ton of damage now comes from CS, a melee ability).
If this talent turns out be very overtuned we can unnerf CSAA, which currently only deals slightly more damage than auto attack because it scales with mastery. If it didn’t have any mastery scaling, it would do less damage than auto attack.
this doesnt fix the issue for templar strikes at all.
templar strikes is behind because radiant glory exists. even if you sack one charge of boj for it, the rotation is still spmewhat bloated. this rework idea while nice to make spenders stronger. still doesnt fix the ultimate issue of TS cause you’ll still have CS while also having rg making how 60%+ uptime
CSAA doesn’t need GCD’s and that in itself is incredibly potent.
CSAA replaces auto-attack, which means it now works with AoW, which in turn means AoW work with Blessed Champion.
So in AoE at least, you get tons of BoJ resets.
Furthermore, if you do pick Hearth of the crusader instead of Zealot fervor, you still want to go down to BoV/HolyFlames but now you have to pick talents that are kind of “meh” to get there.
in ST with m+ build switching from CSAA to TS is a 2.7% drop in damage for me.
Yes but you still get more HoPo from TS. CSAA gives HoPo every two swings. Each swing is about 2 seconds-ish or so (we’ll keep it at 2 seconds). Which means you’re generating 1 HoPo about every 4 seconds. In a 10 seconds window, you’ll generate 2 HoPo from csaa. In a 20 second window, you get 5 HoPo from csaa.
With TS, you can generate 2 HoPo immediately (no waiting like csaa), and it’s about (at least for me) a 9 second cd. So in a 10 second window, I’m generating 4 HoPo. Double what csaa gives. In a 20 second window, you get 6 HoPo.
Tell me where I’m wrong with my math…
Wait, are you telling me that because of Blessed Champion, each additional target counts as a reset? That would mean with 5 targets hit, it would be 100% guarantee reset. I can’t see the proc reset being that high.
I don’t know. I think Sanctify is now a pretty good Talent to have.
Again, how? Please explain the math to me because TS gives more damage and HoPo as I’ve previously explained.
If each GCD is covered because you get reset of BoJ, CSAA gives you more HP.
Because BoJ and TS give 1hp each, if BoJ just replace the GCD TS is taking and then it gets passive HP from AA, you just get more.
TS gets ahead of CSAA in ST on the back of it’s damage alone not because of generation.
Considering the relative damage of our spender took a nose dive compared to the rest of the kit, that even without CSAA we’re still swimming in HP and the tier will also make HP redundant.
It seems plausible TS get’s ahead but it’s not from the generation.
it’s still 20% on each so you could roll a non reset on each, they don’t add up together.
But yeah, go hit on the pack mobs and look at your resets.
Ahhh, what you’re saying is legit, no doubt, but you’re kind of “cheating” because now you’re bringing in other Talents that synergize with csaa, Without that synergy, csaa is inferior to TS. That being said, although what you’re saying is legit, then I can also bring in synergy from others Talents as well for TS such as Heart of the Crusader (among many others) giving it a 20% damage and crit damage increase. That is MASSIVE for a spell that gives you 122% and 225% AP for each attack (as well as the DoT).
And TS synergizes with more Talents than csaa.
Also, csaa has a few glaring weaknesses that TS does such as it doesn’t benefit from Skyfury among other things.
Which bolsters my argument for TS, since TS far out-damages csaa. It’s not even a contest.
Wait…if you can roll a 20% on each and there’s five targets, then by definition that with give you 5 times the chance to get a reset. Those odds technically will give you a 100% chance to proc. I definitely don’t see that in my gameplay.
Now, I’m not doubting your word but if that was the actual case, Blizzard would shut that down with the quickness.
csaa brings something TS doesnt. it frees a global so you can use something else in cs’s place. while ts adds another half global after the initial hit
csaa also scales with mastery, and works with aow
i personally think the difference between csaa and ts is fine. a 5% difference is more than viable and often people dont play at the level sims suggest they should
it does but even with more synergies its weaker. you have to consider the various strengths of those synergys. csaa is just strong
i just wanna say that yall can play TS if yall want, it just to me it feels clunky because of our lack of gcds
I mean yeah, the point is to compare them both at their peak synergy.
Humm TS doesn’t benefit from Skyfury, your AA would, that would be a marginal gain in AoW proc in ST situations.
Depends on context, like I said the M+ build for me gave back CSAA ahead for ST damage by 2.7%
My next step would then be to compare the AoE damage and see the trade-off to see if 1 performs better.
Also CSAA has better synergy with the new Divine Hammer which is now staple in all recommended build apparently
Because you can spend GCD’s on spenders more instead of if you had to use TS.
That’s not how odds work.
You can roll 6 dices, it doesn’t mean you’ll get 1 to 6 each time, neither does it mean you’re guaranteed to get a 1 if you need a 1 to perform a special action.
There’s 46 656 possible combinations and they all have an equal chance to appear.
Sure you’re more likely than not to see it but there’s a chance you don’t.
Like it’s not like there was 5 doors and 1 contains a prize while the others doesn’t and you get 5 chance to open them.
The chance is rolled individually at each door.
So each door has 80% chance to contain nothing.
Okay. But I don’t that as a drastic decrease is damage output (if any) in that very small window, especially given the damage output TS gives out. Also, from a different perspective, it gives out massive damage and HoPo on demand when other spells are still on cooldown.
As well as TS. Go on…
You’re “cheating” now because you’re adding an additional Talent point to bolster your argument. I can make that same argument by adding an additional Talent point as well to TS.
That is an excellent point and I agree with you. My “problem” is that I don’t see mathematically 5% difference.
I have. I’m honestly waiting for someone to give me the math that csaa with the additional Talent points makes it superior to TS.
I hear you, Brother in the Light. I enjoy it because I love seeing a paladin swinging a massive hammer for massive damage.
csaa scales with mastery and is completely passive. which is better than TS which is a active ability
turalyon your a chill fella. so imma try and say this in the niceest way possible. csaa is also a skill check, play ret right and you barely have pauses in gameplay aside from like one or two moments in a 5min bossfight. boj is also a very strong global and being able to fill those gaps csaa leaves with boj is a very solid skill ceiling.
from a different perspective, ts does give massive damage and hopo on demand. but also consider that boj does this as well and you have 2 charges of it with csaa. the only benefit of ts is that it gives more damage per gcd press. 2 charges of boj also reduces waste of aow. which is another added benefit
its hard not to cheat, cause you have to take account everything when it comes to a impactful choice like ts and csaa. it doesnt exist in a vacuum. if it does then ts is betetr than csaa by a long shot.
but ret isnt just templar strikes vs csaa it’s alot of other things we cant discount
ultimately its a game, play with what buil;d you want, as long as you know what your giving up
i need you to send me a warcraft log log to see where we can improve. cause i constantly touch my st sims and even go above it if i rng good. even in dragonflight when we didnt have RG i was play with ts and cs normal when it was a sim loss of 5-2% respectfully. heck i even rocked crusade at the time even tho that was another 3% loss in a 5min encounter
idk how else to explain it more than we already did. theres math but im not a super duper tcer like bolas or max or dao. im just a guy that does napkin stuff and feelycraft based on actual tc work
Not disagreeing here, I have no problem looking it this from that perspective. Just pointing out that csaa alone is inferior to TS alone.
Sure it does. I’ve seen it benefit from my own gameplay. Also, if it didn’t benefit from Skyfury, the tooltip would have pointed that out like it did with csaa.
From sims?? That’s why I would love to know the parameters on why csaa outperforms TS.
Also another and legit note, TS is superior because you need to constantly be in your adversary’s face with csaa. In actual gameplay, that’s just not the case because of dungeon mechanics. Take the last boss of Stonevault. There’s no way you’re able to stay in his face. But with TS, all I need is a second and a half (if that) to pull of my TS combo and get the full benefits from Strike, Slash and the burn it gives.
Ahhh, but it’s also a detriment to Divine Hammer because it can’t increase its duration whereas TS hits does increase its duration. TS also has a FAR better chance to proc Divine Storm from Empyrean Power, thus extending Divine Hammer and Hammerfall.
That’s not what I mean. 20% means a 1 in 5 chance you’ll hit it. You roll that dice five times, that greatly increases your odds/chances are you’re gonna get what you need. It’s no longer a mere 20% chance that you’ll hit.
