Just as the sword made Sylvanas into a Banshee it made Arthas into a Deathknight.
The first soul among the many that were claimed was Arthas.
The actions of Banshee Sylvanas while still enslaved to the Lichking and Deathknight Arthas until he becomes the Lichking and regains some modicum of freewill through the mental war he fought within himself both are blameless for their actions.
In the Sylvanas book we will hopefully see the horrible things that Banshee Sylvanas was forced to do against her will whether she was conscious of it or not that area of her lore has always been somewhat sparse on the details. Regardless, she is blameless for those actions.
We can start critiquing her when she regains her freewill as the Lichking begins to lose control over his slaves.
Just as Arthas remained Arths Sylvannas regained her free will when she broke free from his control Everything that she did afterward, is totally on her including the decimation of the Kal’dorei people.
That depends on where your confusion lies. to make it simple. Everything that Sylvannas did after she she broke free of Arthas’ control is on her agency.
It was not Arthas’ control. He was not Lichking yet, just a Deathknight.
He was as much as his creature as was Sylvanas.
That’s why when the Lich King began to weaken it allowed Sylvanas to break free.
Some here argue the trauma of what Sylvanas caused her to do evil actions that defy reason and so she is not really responsible. I understand this point and I think its worth considering but ultimately Sylvanas is responsible for those actions. She could have strived to do better.
The responsibility lies in the timing of the events.
Arthas as Death Knight was still Arthas. That’s why he still has to be told what needs to be done. That’s why he left Illidan alive at the end of their encounter.
That’s why he added Extra Unneeded Cruelty to what he did at Quelthelas
That’s why when his father asked him what he was doing when he stabbed him he replied. “Seceeding you” that’s the reply of the Prince of Lordaeron.
Lore says he lost his soul.
In WC3 Arthas literally says he heeds only the voice of the dark lord now.
Why are you so fixated in arguing that Arthas is fully responsible when there is so much explicit lore telling you otherwise? I just don’t understand it and I think I have talked about this topic enough. If you still don’t get it then you never will.
The guy was taken over. He wasn’t a mindless mute slave but he was still under the control of the Lichking.
Hence the whole internal struggle to get back in control.
I’m pretty sure that will be what happens. As soon as Pélagos gets turned into a robot, he will summon his soul from anduin’s sword and send him to revendreth. The Accuser will finally have some real work to do apart from Kael’thas. She’s gonna be so happy. Really she takes pride in her work. Not the suffering itself but the results of the penance process. That a soul truly understands and grows from the things it did in life. It’s why denathrius’s idea of breaking her with her own sinstone had minimal effect. She remembers what she did in life but more importantly she understands how awful she was and has learned from it.
If he was controlled then he wouldn’t need “to hear the voice of the dark lord” There is that I pronoun in that speech. The only struggle recorded was for dominance, and that was the battle fought in the period of time between Icecrown and the start of Wrath.
When he open sup his eyes as per the lore of the Arthsas Novel it’s very clear that he’s won that battle and is pressuring his own agenda.
Its white on black… explicitly telling you what is going on when the cinematic ends.
The game and the lore could not be more explicit if they tried.
But you are grasping at straws to prove the sky is green and the ocean is purple.
And to the books development. If he was always in control then there was no battle necessary to regain control. You insist on him having something that you later claim he had to fight to regain…
Two people can look at one thing and become firmly convinced in the very different things they see. Yesterday showed that in spaces regarding a certain event which occurred a year and a day ago.
Keep in mind that Warcraft’s creative minds underwent a lot of changes in personnel in vision since the days of the RTS. What was intended back then isn’t neccessarily true now.
Yeah unfortunately in the real world we have people that think scientific facts are a matter of opinion or politics. It’s just a baffling phenomenon to me that all.
And you have failed to present any evidence that has switched. The only singular piece of evidence of this is some random developer in an interview saying something vague which I have still accepted but it still doesn’t change the overall analysis of this character and their story.
I have presented plenty of examples. Some of which you don’t have experience of since I believe you’ve said that you haven’t read the Arthas novel, but quite a few that are resident in the RTS and the MMORG games. You’ve decided that they don’t meet your specs. and at this point, any further discussion is just repeating the same points.
I have commented on the book.
Unless in the book you have proof that he had free will after touching the sword then you would have a point.
Even in the book it says he had to fight to gain back control of himself. If he was always in control, then there is no point in struggling to regain it. There are multiple sites dedicated in recording the lore in a comprehensive way so anyone can understand it. They disagree with you too.
And you know what, I am fast reader, out of spite I will read this book in couple of days so that your conscious is clear. I am sure I can find a copy on the internet.
His extended torture of Sylvannas and her rangers alone proves it. It wasn’t commanded by the Lich King. It certainly ddin’t help in his campaign for the Sunwell. If anything it was a distraction. In fact the only reason he did so, because their determined defense OFFENDED him personally.
Ok I just bought and downloaded digital version.
In the book it proves you wrong if you skip to pages 124 to 129.
Before touching the blade he was comforted by the light and its protection. When he touched the sword it was there initially until it poofed away.
In these pages it says how scared he was to fail again and to be wrong and all the sacrifices to be for nothing. He was in too deep. This is all explicitly said.
And yeah he has an ego the size of mount everest. I have only skimmed through 30 pages but it is clear as day… boy oh boy does Golden like repeating herself. ugh.
After taking up the sword the book tells you he abandons the light or it abandons him, his perspective changes, he only listens to sword now and the voice of the darklord.
Wrong.
The book proves it by explicitly telling you that he got possessed by the sword.
Why have you been lying this whole time? The book disproves what you are saying. What is wrong with you?
You’re harping on the bloody sword nd the bloody cave. The concept of what a soul is supposed to be is illdefined and you won’t get any definition in the material so I’m leaving it aside for the purposes of this dicussion afor reasons already stated.
I’m showing that Arthas is making his own personal decisions in the actions he took afterwards. If he’s making his own decisions, then ipso facto, he has his own agency. Whether he has a “soul” at this point is irrelevant.
Literally what my point has been and the book completely backed my argument.
Arthas was changed after touching it and he touched it for all the right reasons and goals.
If you have some part of the book you want me to jump to that disproves what has been explicitly stated in pages 126 to 129 then please by all means present it.
Otherwise, I am just going to follow what the game AND the book says. After touching the sword, there was a bloody magical voice in the back of his head, swaying him to whatever desire it intended.
Pure headcanon that you are inserting into the story to back up what you are saying.
The book explicitly says there is now something in his head. His personality changed, his goals changed, his morals changed and he began to worship the sword and the voice while beforehand it was going to be a tool for salvation.
I have never said that Arthas wasn’t changed by taking up the blade. People change, and sometimes those changes are sudden.
What I do contest is that this change removed his agency and relieves him of his responsibiolity for the acts he commited afterwards. I have repeatedly shown that his acts DO show his agency and his ability to choose. He’s not some different person, he’s the same person who’s undegone changes and made choices many of which derived from personality characteristics that he has always had from his days as a teenager.
Arthas didn’t change with age and experience. He changed by touching a magical cursed sword that he wanted to save his kingdom with. Then it corrupted him and installed a lichking operating system that completely changed his entire core principals and goals and personality by dialing his bad traits to 11 and the good traits to a 1.
This is in the book that you kept saying would totally and radically change how Arthas is viewed. Well I have the book right here. Tell me where in the book all these revelations are held because the more I read the more it is apparent that everything I have been saying was being corroborated by the book.
The book says otherwise. If you have a passage in the book you want me to review then please present it.
