Theramore was a military state.
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There are two we know of. And two attempted genocides.
Two of the attempted ones were against the humans(first and second war plus gilneas)
Those women and children were a threat the Horde could not withstand.
It was not just a military state, because otherwise you would also be allowed to wipe out Orgrimmar, because the Horde is a military nation.
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Jaina did try twice, with two waves that Thrall stopped.
The only difference between the Alliance and the Horde when it comes to genocide is that the Horde is better at stopping the Alliance when they try.
She did try to wipe out Org. Twice. But Thrall stopped those waves.
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Sure I do. And I did, with my middle east comparison. You responded with hyperbole. I responded flippantly.
My intent of addressing the subject matter was perfectly clear until your dishonesty.
Name them then.
Not Theramore: It was a military target, nor an attempt to eliminate all Lordaeronians, let alone all humans.
Not Cata-Ashenvale: That was a war of territory, not annihilation.
Gilneas? Another land grab. Fleeing Gilneans weren’t even attacked. Sylvanas wanted the land, not the people.
So give me three more.
Not an argument I’ve made, so irrelevant. I fully believe the Alliance should take steps to retaliate and prevent. Pointing out the comparison between your proposition and the real world situation of western powers in the middle east is only intended to highlight the massive problem down the road that comes with occupation.
Correction: They call out your propositions and those of the wackado side of the night elf fan base (which, FWIW, I don’t consider you a part of) as immoral. Me, I don’t think yours is immoral so much as impractical; again, middle east, western powers, never works out so well. It’s not immoral though.
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So the count is at three attempts for the Horde and two attempts for the Alliance.
I suppose we do owe the Alliance another attempt. (Unless you count Stormhiem or the Purge of Dalaran, the attack on Dazar’Alor, like I do.)
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I actually forgot about that. I mentally tuned out cata after the gilneas fiasco
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I am glad I’m not the only person who uses this word!!
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If you focus on one bit of shorthand and ignore the entire point I was making with it, then sure.
But would call that “Not confronting the actual subject matter”
Stormwind
The 2nd war in general
Theramore
Gilneas
Southshore
Stonetalon
Ashenvale (If you want to consider what was said by Terran Gregory, that most of the Kaldorei defenders there were civilians)
All of these either are or included the razing of civilian populations. In come cases, involved situations like death camps, torture, enslavment and mutilation.
I mean, if we want to hyperfocus on IRL legal definitions, the Horde is guilty of plenty more war crimes than just genocide, and commits them readily.
it is an argument you made. That is why we are having this conversation.
You listed 7, techincally Alynsa is right, it’s less than 10.
A far cry from 100. You were being hyperbolic.
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Some of those have multiple genocides within them
Genoception?
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I love how when you do it, I should accept it. When I do it, it’s wrong. Really highlights your level of honesty here, Akji.
None of these are genocides. Theramore was not an attempt to kill off Lordaeronians; they lived in plenty of other locations, primarily Stormwind. Gilneas was not an attempt at genocide; Sylvanas wanted them off the land, either by force or by fleeing. She had no interest in killing those fleeing. Southshore is not a genocide for the same reason as Theramore. Stonetalon is not a genocide because it’s not even a major population of night elves living there.
You’ve conflated massacres with genocide. They are not the same.
That’s two.
Then show it. Show me a quote where I said the Alliance cannot retaliate. Find a single one.
Spoiler: You won’t find one.
You said your “100 genocides” is not hyperbole (which it is). Nobody denied the Horde committed other war crimes. Nobody denied the Horde has done great evil. Nobody denied, as far as I recall, that the alliance should retaliate. Those are your own twisted thoughts in your own head.
I called you out for hyperbole when you called me out for being flippant. You could have just said “yeah, I’m being hyperbolic, but the Horde’s done plenty of badness”. You chose not to say that, instead doubling down on dishonesty and lies about what I’ve said.
Why? What’s the need for lies here? Y’know my posts don’t actually cease to exist after you personally read them, right?
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it was the goal of the horde to destroy theramore and end this as a nation.
theramore was a nation on their own, of course its genocid if you try to end an entire nation.
When it comes to the Horde paying for the first War, they spent years in concentration camps, fighting pits, being “civilized” or killed. They paid the penance for that.
The Horde still has to pay the piper for Teldrassil but don’t act like the Horde hasn’t changed from Gul’dan/Blackhand’s Horde until now.
They changed through sufferage and atonement through Alliance punishment.
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The Horde has persistantly changed due exclusively to Alliance pressure of punishment…
As a Horde fan I wonder if the punishment will ever end. Can we just exist now? Maybe Baine and Anduin are right, maybe the Warhawks need to be the ones to go.
When does the Alliance punishment stop? When will the Alliance stop threatening to dismantle the Horde?
When can we just co-exist?
i think…when the horde stop attacking the alliance and try to kill their people…
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Honestly? As a Horde fan?
I’d rather actually see the punishment for once.
It kinda sucks being told “If y’all act up again, we’re gonna come in and do something” only for the Horde to act up again and hear “Oh boy Horde, one more time and we’re gonna come in and do something next time, pinky swear!!”
Heck to all that empty threat. Do something this time.
I want to go back to Azeroth post-SL to find the Alliance has rebuilt Tiragarde Keep in-game, with neutral flagged but attackable elite level 75+ guards wandering outside there and Orgrimmar’s front gates. To see Talrendis Point built into a real military outpost. To see Bael Modan a working dwarven enclave. To see that yeah, this time was too far and the Alliance has actually taken steps to keep an eye on the Horde and be prepared for next time.
And then to find out the Horde Council signed off on all of this to avoid another war. And because even the Horde Council can see the writing on the wall; if we don’t do something, we’re going to repeat the same mistakes of the past.
I want there to be stakes to the narrative, for there to be fallout from the narrative, and for all of it not to get swept under the rug with an apology and an empty threat because the writers are too dumb to think of these things I just wrote in a span of two minutes.
I want this, because it leads to more stories. What’s the Horde like when living under the actual threat of an Alliance military action? Do Horde civilians look at these watchdogs with hate or understanding? Will we see a Horde uprising to fight for their “freedom”, or will we see a Horde that can rise up to show the Alliance they’re better than how they seem?
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Lol no they didn’t, they got a 20 year sentence for mass slaughter and attempted genocide of the Humans and other races on Azeroth, and not only was that only because Thrall broke them out of jail despite the fact they are legitimate criminals that was only for the crimes they commited on Azeroth, what about their almost successful genocide of the Draenei race?
It virtually hasn’t, the only reason I say virtually instead of literally is because the old Horde had the majority go along with genocidal and warmongering leaders gleefully while a tiny percentage were against it. This time, the majority went along with a genocidal and warmongering leader but they weren’t so gleeful I guess? They still went along with her anyway. Remember it’s canon that the MAJORITY of the Horde condoned Sylvana’s actions
because the Horde rebels and Alliance forces has to team up for a CHANCE to defeat the rest of the Horde.
Agree to disagree, they haven’t changed at all from what we’ve seen from BFA. Saurfang was spot on when he said Sylvanas was the true successor to Blackhand and all Alliance could say in response that the Alliance was just as bad, sort of, not really though.
Again, BFA proves you wrong.
The punishment will never end, because the punishment hasn’t even started. Oh by the way go head and quote only the first part of the previous sentence cause I know how much you love dismantling people’s quotes and taking them out of context
The Alliance aren’t the ones genociding Horde races and wiping out their population centres.
Ah yes the typical Horde scapegoating, quite the efficient model by the way. Have one person espouse all the ‘kill all the Alliance’ energy, have literally everyone else in the Horde be like, “I don’t agree with this” while still backing them up with the same passion as someone just as hateful at them, that way if/when they lose the War or get forced into a stalemate they can point to that one person and say, “see, they were the problem and no-one else”.
It’s pathetic, when Thrall said to Tyrande that everything would be forgiven when he delivers Sylvana’s head and Tyrande agreed he had to have used all his willpower not to bust a gut laughing.
Again, when has it even started
I’m guessing when the Alliance is done with empty threats.
One of two ways.
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When the Horde go above and beyond seeking redemption, basically let the Alliance write up a laundry list of reparations and punishments for them to accept that isn’t just “we won’t do it next time”.
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When the Alliance gets to mirror all the evil the Horde has done in the past couple decades back at them in one fell swoop, then once the smoke is cleared, the Alliance goes, “Huh, guess we’re even now” and the Horde has to nod their head and accept it.
Oh by the way, out of those two options, guess which one I want to see most in WoW 