But that is making a choice, and a noble one at that. Self-sacrifice to save others is the gold standard of heroism in fantasy literature, specifically because the hero makes that choice.
Your arguement turns Liam from a heroic character into a common victim, because he had no agency in his own death.
It’s a massive disservice to the character.
Cool. Then she has none either and did nothing wrong. Because she had no choice.
OR!!
We can all accept the reasonable stance that she was being as hyperbolic as Cthun was being when he told us we’re already dead.
If you accept that no characters have agency because Sylvanas said so, then you have to also accept that everyone died back in Vanilla and we’re all trapped in some death realm.
To make it clear, I’m not blaming Liam, the worgen, the night elves, Delaryn or Sylvanas for what an aggressor did to them on their way to their goals.
I’m just saying blaming Liam for being murdered in the defense of his homeland is a little unfair.
When the blame should rest with the aggressor and perhaps the people who set them on that path.
Or you can be both, heroic in that it was a choice freely given but a victim of things beyond your control.
Or we accept then none of us can truly be a judge of the “rightness” or “wrongness” of a person and that the current system of having a Maw is flawed and that there should be something that replaces it. And the only fair thing is everyone gets a chance, including Arthas.
Or I can accept that Azeroth is very flawed place and that the system put in place were as horribly flawed as well. Hence, why it does need to be reformed but not by whatever method Sylvanas was using.
You literally cannot both take destiny into your own hands, and also have no ability to make that choice.
They are literally mutually exclusive.
That literally has nothing to do with your prior statement. You argued because Sylvanas said we have no agency, it must be true.
That has nothing to do with the Maw.
Except, as you’ve argued we all have no agency, the system cannot be fixed. Because any changes we try to make are therefore pre-ordained by the same unchanging fate that pre-ordained everything before our “reformatting”. Because to go against fate, you’d need to have the agency to do so that you argue does not exist.
Or, again, that was a hyperbolic statement.
Because we haven’t all beed dead since Cthun told us we were. And NPCs can say things that are not overarcing facts.
Liam’s not at fault for his death, but he did choose to make that sacrifice. However in modern legal terms, Sylvanas didn’t commit homicide, she committed manslaughter.
She is still responsible for his death, and Liam still made the choice resulting in his death.
Both statements can be true without resorting to logic like “her own fault for not just letting a monster do as he pleased”… Which can definitely be used in different contexts to highlight just how horrible of an argument it is, but I don’t wanna be banned again, plz dun ban me mods!!
I mean, yeah, I would rather BFA and SL just get a hard delete, but as long as they are going forward with this idiotic story it is better that the War Criminal gets brought to justice by the people she wronged. Regardless of her emotional or mental state.
I mean, there’s always the option of “Sylvanas stays in the Maw, looking for Nathanos and out of the story, until more competent writers take over to properly address and give nuance to her character and the crimes she committed while a pawn of the Jailer and being soul-split, and finds a way to resolve her story as well as the story of the night elves”.
Or we can just start resolving all poorly concieved and implemented storylines involving one of the three important female characters by killing them. If you really think that’s a better way to go about it.
We will miss you, Tyrande and Jaina. You both have poorly concieved and implemented storylines, and Ikaar believes that a sin too great for a female character.
And each of them is one of the three. If I were limiting it solely to Sylvanas, I’d’ve solely referred to her. If you unironically agree with that statement, then do so and we can discuss the means, methods and perpetrators of the deaths of Tyrande and Jaina.
Otherwise, don’t unironically agree with statements you do not unironically agree to.
There are more witty and clever ways of saying “I really hate Sylvanas and it has become my defining trait”.
There are VASTLY more people at this point who hate Sylvanas then are fans of her, she is the scrappy doo of the wow Universe at this point, completely front and centre character that does nothing but ruin the narrative around her.
Anduin is a similar character, but the difference is he isn’t completely evil also nowhere near as prominent as Sylvanas has been lately.
I do unironically agree that we should resolve the Sylvanas issue by just permanently deleting her from the story, but her being poorly written is ONE of the reasons not THE main reason. Even if I agreed that Jaina and Tyrande were also as poorly written as her as of late (I don’t) they still don’t meet the other criteria I have for wanting a character just gone from Wow’s Story.
The problem is, the butchering of teldrassil had no nuances,so sylvanas crime is fully evil and a solution either way need an addressing of the burning of an entire race. How would you bring nuances in such a story? Insanity would not even solve it at this point.
Thats a point of no return.
To blame the nightelfs for the burning would be even worse than the story right now
Has as many people defending Sylvanas as demanding her death as people on the fence.
First, the tongue-in-cheek response: As if there’s still WoW YouTubers around who haven’t quit for FF14, quit for more diverse games or quit entirely.
Second, serious response: Heavily dependent on who you watch. All the ones I see like the character, but hate the current story.
Your two examples have proven no overwhelming majority.
I call it your defining trait because most of your posts lately have been about your hate for Sylvanas. Akiyass hates Sylvanas. Akiyass talks about other things and can be very insightful on topics not about Sylvanas (EDIT: And, in fairness to Akiyass, they can also be very insightful on topics about Sylvanas as well). You come around to go off on this one character, as if the sole problem with Blizzard in 2021-2022, with Shadowlands and with the franchise overall can be summed up to the simple fact she exists.
Yeah, it’s unironically becoming your defining trait.
Maybe as of late, I’m talking about when this all started out. The point is the Sylvanas haters are mostly sick and tired of her so can’t even bother talking about her and want her to disappear. I was one of them, but I don’t post about hating Sylvanas just because I hate the character, but because of all the forum posts defending this abysmal mary-sue character and praising her and making excuses for her and it pisses me off.
Screw them, I don’t really care if people are delusional when it comes to a Characters motivation but the difference between someone saying, “Garrosh did nothing wrong” or “Arthas did nothing wrong” compared to “Sylvanas did nothing wrong” or “Sylvanas did something wrong, but it wasn’t actually her fault” is that Sylvanas as a character is not only harming the story and has done irreparable damage to it but spits on the faces of the fans of characters/races she has wronged as she is very obviously going to be completely absolved of wrong-doing and suffering no consequences.