Besides the point that I hate BfA’s story with a fiery passion, Sylvanas doesn’t really use the Forsaken as a fighting force outside the Darkshore warfront. It could be argued that she spent more of the rest of the Horde in the Fourth War then her own, likely under the intention of seeing if she could pull them to Zovaal’s plan.
And hence her disappointment in that they were too enamored by hope.
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You are all misinterpreting that line a bulwark is not a shield it’s a defensive measure to ward off attack. Not just for her but protection for her people.
At the end of the day she’s still “the defender of her people”
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It isn’t just a shield - it can be all manner of fortifications.
But, Illidan drops a shield with the word “bulwark” in it, so now the only thing bulwark can mean is shield, apparently.
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So my point, now that I have more time to type, is that blaming Liam for his death at Sylvanas’s hands is like… Well, blaming Sylvanas for her death at Arthas’s hands.
A bit dodgy. Yes, there are circumstances. Yes, they could have run away instead. Yes, the person who killed them is under the influence (indirectly) of an omnicidal maniac. It’s still not the fault of the poor person just trying to protect their home and loved ones that they happened to be in the way.
Also we’re back at Arthas, hurray!
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This is already almost as long than the Light Crusade thread.
Well yes.
It’s about Sylvanas now.
That immediately means it must reach 2000+ posts all saying the same one of five things.
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The real friends was the omnicidal maniacs we made along the way.
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They are not at all alike.
Arthas purposefully killed and raised Sylvanas. He was not the least bit disappointed or concerned.
But when Liam took his own life by jumping into her arrow, Sylvanas was like: “Oh drat!”
Liam whole heartedly dove in front of an arrow not meant for him, while Arthas specifically aimed to kill and raise Sylvanas.
Very dodgy.
Well, not on Liam’s part. He did the opposite of dodge.
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Arthas actually the elves the chance to run away/give up. They didn’t. Really, if Liam gets blamed for his death so should Sylvanas. She shouldn’t have stayed in Arthas path and just let the thing she cares about most be killed/destroyed by some monster.
Better then Sylvanas’ power roll direct into Arthas’ blade.
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No, because Arthas purposefully killed Sylvanas. While Sylvanas tried to kill Genn, and Liam took his own life by jumping into the arrow.
Genn spawned Human shields to throw themselves infront of him, who were not the initial target. While Sylvanas was the intended target of Arthas.
Idk… one got a whole cinematic that gets cut into other cinematics… better is subjective.
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And she didn’t have to be his target, if she ran away she would be alive right now. Her death is her own fault for not just letting a monster do as he pleased.
Arthas purposefully killed Sylvanas as he intended.
That is not so with Liam. He purposefully and willingly took his own life by jumping into an arrow not meant for him.
They are nothing alike.
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This is some peak 2022 logic right here, and we’re only three days in!
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No more then blaming Liam for his own death because he decided he wanted to save his dad. Apperently we are not suppose to blame the person who pulls the trigger/stabs someone else. It should be the guy standing against said person.
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IDK Zerd.
Liam did jump in the way of the arrow. This is fact. Sylvanas was not aiming for Liam. This is also fact. These two facts mean while Sylvanas is guilty of his death, Liam’s death specifically is more akin to manslaughter than murder. Sure, there’s also the attempted murder of Genn and extenuating circumstances involved, but the base of Curseword’s argument is still correct; Liam’s death was unintentional on Sylvanas’s part, and intentional on Liam’s part. He willingly sacrificed himself for Genn’s life.
But an argument of “Sylvanas is at fault for not just letting a monster do as he pleased” is some twisted logic from the start. By that token, the night elves who died as the Horde marched on Teldrassil are at fault for their own deaths “for not just letting a monster do as she pleased”.
Are you blaming the night elf soldiers who died for their own deaths?
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And again, I am using this logic because apparently Liam is being blame for his own death. Not Sylvanas. That if he didnt jump infront of his dad and let him die he would be alive right now. I am using that same logic against Sylvanas and her fans.
Does it matter? Arthas wasn’t actually after Slyvanas either. Not at the start anyway. He wanted the Sunwell and sylvanas just happened to jump infront of him and impeeded his ever step. Arthas would have not given her a second thought if she step aside and let him defile the sunwell.
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I mean, go ahead - but it is wrong, totally off base, and does not make sense, as Sylvanas was the intended target of Arthas. While Liam made the choice to take his own life with an arrow that was not meant for him.
I see a recurring theme among those who defend Arthas, and those who diminish Liam’s sacrifice - they seem to ignore the role that choice played in their fates.
While Sylvanas was robbed of her choice by Arthas because she vexed him.
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But that is literally the case. It is the factually correct state of things. Liam died because he chose to sacrifice himself to save his father.
Why are you taking the agency away from Liam’s sacrifice?
When he made the choice to kill her, he certainly was after her. When she asked for a clean death and he chose not to give her one, he made that choice.
It seems you have a very odd idea of Sylvanas, where you give her all the agency of other people’s decisions.
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Was it really a choice when there was no other option? He could have not jump but his dad would die and likely his own people would be defeated by Sylvanas because their king would be dead and their moral would plummet. At best he was given a false choice.
Similarly Sylvanas could have choosen to run away and hide and not sacrifice herself, but is that really a valid choice?
Sylvanas has been telling us none us have any true agency. That we are all stuck in a cycle none of us truly have any control. While she isn’t totally correct, she isn’t totally wrong either. The actions of various characters have been drastically influenced by forces beyond anyone’s control.
Everyone has been a pawn of the elemental forces that have been playing their game. Whether it be void lords, or titans or the Legion, everyone is a product of all those conflicts so to says they should be totally responsible for their actions seems unjust as well.
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Liam was in the way of Sylvanas’s target, didn’t retreat, died for it.
Sylvanas was in the way of Arthas’s target, didn’t retreat, died for it.
In the former case, it’s a little more metaphorical, but Cata was the start of the rather broad SYLVANAS HAS BECOME WHAT SHE HATED, THIS IS VERY DEEP writing. See also: Koltira’s fate.
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