Imagine being so disconnected from reality and the lore that you think “powersliding into Frostmourne” was a choice and not just artistic liberty taken by a cinematic artist.
7 Likes
I mean, did she seriously expect to accomplish anything with that attack? She could have retreated, as one would logically do when they are losing a battle.
“Disconnected from reality” is a funny way of putting it though. It’s literally what happened.
It’s the truth though.
You should reconnect with reality, it promises to be nicer this time.
2 Likes
She sacrificed herself to buy time for innocent civilians to retreat to Silvermoon. That’s always been the lore behind her choice to fight Arthas and make her last stand.
Every runner she sent was killed someone needed to warn Anastarian to protect the Sunwell. Her service to her people was slowing Arthas down, to no avail.
4 Likes
thats right, he chose to grab frostmourne, no one denied this…but even reez sylvanas in undeath wasn´t his own choise alone anymore, everything after the took frostmourne, he wasn´t fully himself anymore.
But he had a choice, she didn’t. We all agree he made a choice.
One could argue that his actions were the result of the Jailer after he picked up the sword. The Jailer is responsible for Sylvanas becoming a Banshee and defeating the jailer will give her absolution, along with Anduin who did not choose to wield Kingsmourne. But Arthas still has to atone for choosing to pick up Frostmorne of his own free will.
He made a choice. There was no illusion of choice in Arthas’s decision.
Why didn’t he just walk away?
He chose power. The same way Kel’thuzad and Ner’zul chose power, and neither of them got redemption. Having sympathy for Arthas and Ner’zul is one thing, but both of them also deserve to be held accountable for choosing power.
5 Likes
I think you have missed the point.
Arthas’s path to damnation was because he chose to pick up Froistmourne.
Sylvanas’s path to damnation was because someone else chose to make her a banshee.
Arthas made himself damned. Sylvanas was made damned by another person.
10 Likes
But if we do that, then…
Zovaal has outright stated that past Lich Kings were failures for his plans because they resisted his will. They were still able to make their own choices. Meaning Arthas, after donning the Helm, was resisting Zovaal and making his own choices.
By contrast, new lore also states that Sylvanas’s soul was severed the same way Uther’s was, only “more”. And we see in Uther’s case, his lesser case of soul-severing made him act in ways against his own nature and beliefs. This would, obviously, apply even moreso to Sylvanas. Sylvanas therefore was made to act against her nature by a force beyond her ability to resist or control. She, in essence, did not have the freedom to make her own choices.
According to the new lore.
4 Likes
and after she was released from the control…she maded choise of her own too…it was after all her free will, the bq sylvanas did unforgivable crimes, even rg sylvanas admitted this…the crimes of bq sylvanas are unforgivable…and she must face the consequences of the shattered legacy of sylvanas as a whole…the good…but the bad aswell
1 Like
yeah, we know from wotlk…that mathias lehner…was the whole time present and helped in order to defeat the bad lk…helped in order to resist the scourge, we know that arthas…the real arthas…hold back the scourge, so how fits this in with other sources, i mean,we got this ingame
Yes, but we’re going with new lore. You said that. New lore says Arthas was resisting Zovaal.
So which is it, Zahir? The new lore that says Arthas resisted Zovaal and was making his own choices? Or the old lore which, as Deathisfinal pointed out, says Arthas was evil in life?
9 Likes
You know that Zovaal wanted Arthas to unleash the Scourge and wipe out all life on azeroth…so Arthas resisted and prevented just that.
SO, new lore is - at least to this extend - consistent with the information we got from wotlk in which was said that the human part of arthas stopped the lk from unleashing the scourge.
The lk was…zovaal, it wasallways weird that even arthas human part talked about the lk as a whole different being.
But this also means Arthas did unleash the Scourge against all the sentient life in Northrend, still had them assault the plaguelands, sent the Scourge after the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor twice, and did sent Naxxramas to the Plaguelands.
That was all his choice, and made before he “cast away his good side”. Meaning he was a very evil dude, all of his own choosing.
8 Likes
no, it does not.
If you can stop one thing means not you can stop everything, if arthas was only able to stop this baddest of bad fate, and this took all his remaining personality and power, then the lk had free reign and can unleash all the other terrors of the scourge.
its not an fully black and white scenario here, arthas willpower and remaining humanity…had limits in his influence of the lk desiccions.
But he didn’t just stop one thing. He did all of those other things. He was resisting Zovaal. There is zero evidence that he was only kinda-sorta resisting. There is definite evidence he was making his own choices; Bolvar was making his own choices while resisting the Helm.
You’re trying to head canon this all away to salvage Arthas, but I think the lore speaks for itself here very clearly; Arthas did what he did because it was his choice.
6 Likes
Scrodinger’s Arthas: either he had free will this whole time and was able to fight the Jailer’s influence and is responsible for his actions, or he had no free will and was an equal victim of the Jailer.
I feel like we won’t know for sure until after 9.2 when we see his involvement in the Anduin fight.
2 Likes
It amazes me that people honestly claim that arthas had no agency in the choices he made , but the one person, sylvanas, who literally and violently had her agency taken from her is somehow 100% responsible for her own actions
Makes me wanna puke
6 Likes
It seems like people still don’t understand that being fully informed on a decision does not make them guilty of the total unforeseeable consequences.
His intention when he grabbed the sword was to save everyone, he knew he would be cursed but thought that would only cost himself and no one else.
I have already linked footage and story quotes from various story fan sites that catalog all this.
A lot of people here, the sylvanas fans, are very quick to forgive Sylvanas, even though she has self-awareness and freewill the trauma of what happened made her do all those horrible things.
We aren’t even mentioning the Scourge Banshee Sylvanas and all the things she did.
However, we are blaming Scourge Deathknight Arthas on Prince Arthas.
For one decision.
To pick up a cursed sword that he saw as self-sacrifice to save his kingdom.
Sylvanas is seen as a hero for the futile effort of trying to save her kingdom but we vilify Arthas for doing the same. If Sylvanas was in Arthas’ position would she abandon the hunt of Malganis and go back home? Yeah I doubt that very much.
The problem in this entire thread is the double standards that we judge two near identical fallen hero storyline.
4 Likes
We have both the book and Matthias Lenner confirming that there was still a part of Arthas trying to pull him from the brink.