Sylvanas chose to raise Delaryn, going to special lengths to “violate” (if you’ll excuse the inflammatory word choice) her personality.
Sylvanas chose to attempt to destroy Derek’s free will.
Sylvanas chose to, with full knowledge of what the Maw was and how it felt, feed children and her own troops to it.
Regardless of what we wind up going for with the personality of BluVanas, those choices are part of her.
Again, all I’m saying is by the in game structure, neither Arthas nor Sylvanas really deserve to be chucked directly into the Maw. Because the Maw is currently the worst possible thing that can happen to a soul.
Can you quote where you actually see this?
Just simple googling gives me these results:
With the sword in hand, Arthas returned to his base. He launched a counterattack against [Mal'Ganis] and quickly destroyed the dreadlord's base. Mal'Ganis confronted Arthas, telling him that the Lich King had known that he would take the cursed sword. He spoke as if he believed Arthas was now on his side, but to his surprise Arthas used the runeblade to slay him. With his [soul] forfeited to the Lich King, Arthas ran off into the frozen wastes of Northrend.
wowpedia
Despite his promising beginnings, Arthas became one of the most dark and powerful beings Azeroth would ever know. Although he killed the necromancer Kel'Thuzad, he was unable to stop the plague's spread and resorted to increasingly desperate methods, such as purging the city of Stratholme from its infected. Taking up the cursed runeblade called Frostmourne, Arthas was finally able to defeat the undead leader Mal'Ganis, but in so doing he lost his soul. Becoming a death knight of the Scourge, he led the undead forces in destroying Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas and Dalaran. Arthas afterwards made his way to the Frozen Throne of Icecrown, and merged with the Lich King.
wowwiki
And they provide sources on the site. So I am unsure where you are getting a different account of what actually happened when sites dedicated to understanding the lore say differently.
Here is Nobbel doing a three hour video on the entire saga of the Lich King
And the video from WC3 of Arthas’ decision to take the sword. “I will gladly bear any curse to save my homeland”
More delusions from you. After Arthas violated her and cut off a portion of her soul from the rest, she has done wrong. She acknowledges it. That is why now that she is whole, she wants to do something to fix it.
You seem to ignore the lore and the cinematics as much as you invent whole sentences from other people.
Stating the truth - that she only became evil against her own will due to Arthas, and that she had her soul split, and was not wholly herself until now - does not absolve her. It doesn’t mean “she did nothing wrong.” She did bad things, but they were due to Arthas and his violation of her with dark magic. Uther is the one with the most experience dealing with it - and even he acknowledges Sylvanas has a wound worse than his.
Arthas, on the other hand, choose his fate with free will. You can say Sylvanas had free will, but it was only a portion of her even in control - not her whole self.
But as far as this :
These might be the only true words you have typed in this thread. I do, in fact, poop out of my butt. And I don’t think I would have it any other way.
Did he know what fate he was choosing when he made that decision?
The split soul does not make one side evil and the other side good.
And we can’t blame Sylvanas for the terrible things she did while a mind controlled undead.
It took a portion of her soul and psyche that felt positive emotions or concern for others - and left a hateful shadow of her former self that could only think in terms of hate and rage.
So basically taking out the portion that would make good choices, and leaving the portion that would do evil - but they are two portions of the same person. So she takes the blame for her actions.
And who violated her soul and denied her choice, and left her incomplete, and only capable of negative emotions? Arthas.
All the “abused becoming the abuser” comparisons don’t fit, because Arthas actually purposefully used magic to do this. It isn’t some IRL theoretical philosophical or psychiatric discussion about abuse… we actually see the portion Arthas separated as a tangible thing.
He was warned and dissuaded most of the way. There were literal signs. But even if he wanted to ignore all that, he also ignored Muradin.
Did he know his exact fate and the ruin he would cause - he was warned it was the wrong thing, and he did it anyway.
This whole “he had good intentions” nonsense is ridiculous. If a man suffocates his family because he thinks Aliens will take them away, the police will likely arrest him. And he will likely be charged with murder - even if his intentions were good and he never thought he would end up in jail for saving his family!
Not really, they don’t specify what portions of Sylvanas or any soul is taken unless i missed it. They are just more fragmented, the Sylvanas soul we see in the cinematic is more like a Sylvanas that was frozen in time and then had this frozen version get a very vivid crash course on what she was up to.
There was no impairment of judgement or free will. If there is then please could you refer them?
I posted links and videos of what happened to Arthas. No one gave him alternative solutions. The only advice he got was to give up.
How do you think Sylvanas would have reacted if someone told her that Quelthelas was doomed, so give up and run away? I doubt she would have accepted.
Both Arthas and Sylvanas chose to fight and both fell to the Mournblade.
What a ludicrous example. That was not at all the decision Arthas faced.
Thats the decision that Sylvanas faced with Teldrassil. She sacrificed other people for some obscure threat that she was apparently going to save them from.
The decision that Arthas took in Strathholm was whether he would sacrifice one city or let the disease spread to multiple cities maybe even the whole kingdom.
If this was a regular disease then he would have quarantined it, let whoever is going to die and wait for a cure. The problem is when the populace dies they become an undead army that tries to break out from the quarantine.
Arthas made decision when there was no other choice and immediately he pursued the demon responsible rather than wait until he struck again.
When he took the sword he was ready to be cursed himself to save his people.
Muradin warns him and says to go back but Arthas still wants revenge for the people killed and wants to save his people. He clearly says this in the cinematic.
Both Arthas and Sylvanas are in the exact same boat. If you want to sink it they will both go down with it. No one here is saying Arthas is better than Sylvanas, they are both equally bad people who used to be good. Or at least well intentioned. We don’t nearly enough about Sylvanas pre-banshe time. Who knows maybe she enjoyed torturing Amani trolls!
So… he did great evil, even though people told him not to, because they didn’t give him a different option? That sounds like an evil person who won’t take responsibility, especially in context.
“I am saving you by killing you because you didn’t tell me a better way! … why am I in the maw…”
Sylvanas was at home defending her homeland from an invasion. Arthas ditched his kingdom, went to Northrend, disobeyed his father and king, and willingly picked up a sword he was warned not to.
The only comparison is that Arthas is the evil one who decided both of their fates. He chose his own fate by willingly grabbing Frostmourne, and he chose Sylvanas’s fate as he denied her choice of a clean death - then, he violated her for vexing him.
Denying Sylvanas all agency (and therefore culpability) after a traumatic event doesn’t seem fair to her or her victims.
You’re right that real world analogies cannot be 1:1 to fantastic trauma… but this also applies to the fantastic manipulation and grooming Arthas was undergoing.
I will agree that Sylvanas, at the point of her first death, probably didn’t deserve Revedreth and CERTAINLY didn’t deserve the Maw. But a lot has happened since then… experiences she, personally, claims some culpability for.
And I still fail to see any indication that Arthas is worse than the mass murderers who had no reason for their acts beyond ambition (who wound up getting a turn in front of the Arbiter and an agonizing reckoning with their sins in Revedreth.)
If anyone is interested in what the canon lore states about Arthas before wielding Frostmourne.
Q: Can you please explain how “light” works?
Cdev’s Answer: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. (That’s why there are evil paladins for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne)
Isn’t the general rule of thumb that until something exists to contradict Cdev statements, it’s treated as canon? That’s how it’d been for years. Why is this different?
All I keep seeing is you providing excuses after excuses for why Sylvanas should not be held accountable for her actions.
And you have once again failed to provide evidence that I was 100% defending Arthas.
What’s the matter cursewords? Too afraid to provide evidence that I was defending Arthas? You said I was and used that as a way to dismiss everything I said previously. How come you are avoiding this? Just like Thad, rules for thee but not for me.
Big talk from Mr “Sylvanas was 100% allowed to do what she was planning to do to Derek for reasons I will never state as it will go against my twisted narrative that she did nothing wrong”.
All i’m seeing is you flip flopping on your stance since I called you out for having a toxic mindset. Sylvanas had her own free will since WC3 - TFT. This is something she says in 9.2 once again. Yet she sided with Zovaal, continued to serve him loyally until he said a certain word. Committed genocide, tried to enslave and violate Derek Proudmoore for her own ends. Why are you defending someone who was written to mirror Arthas in BFA? Her own fragment came around and saw what the Banshee did were things she did. If she can accept that she did those things on her own free will, why can’t you?
Doesn’t matter. She did those things. She even acknowledged that she did. And yet people like you want to give her a free pass on the evil things she did. Evil things she CHOSE to do. Like I said, you don’t see Uther running around and saying he did nothing wrong. His soul was fragmented as well.
And why does that mean he should get the maw and only the maw? There have been worse people than him who ended up in Revendreth for “atonement”.
Hell, one of the members of the Scarlet Crusade ended up in Revendreth. We see him during questing. So using something that would also include him in some way is not something that support your “Arthas gets nothing but the maw” argument.
Honestly i’m surprised you haven’t tried to pass off what happened to Derek as Arthas’ fault. But that would be doing the blame game. But then again you keep ignoring what Sylvanas was going to do to him. I am still wondering why.
Also by the time he attacked Quel’thalas, his soul was stolen by the blade and was a puppet of Ner’zhul. That is a fact. So did Arthas really have “free will” to choose what he did to Sylvanas at that exact point in time? Actually answer that with an actual answer and not mindless insults. The whole point of BFA was to mirror Sylvanas to Arthas. Mainly the War of Thorns and what she was planning to do with Derek. Why do you keep refusing to see that?
Careful, facts like these will trigger some people.
For the topic at hand
I’m just gonna say this again. And if anyone disagrees with me that is fine. Just leave your petty insults and child like behaviour at the door.
What exactly is a happy ending? Does Arthas deserve a happy ending based on things he has done? No. He did evil things. No-one is denying that. However people are providing the context for why he did those things. And that context is in the story. It is the story. Some of you are acting like he did those things (pre-frostmourne that is) simply because he was a Saturday morning cartoon villain. He believed what he was doing was to save his Kingdom. That is a fact. He even says as much when he goes to pick up Frostmourne.
Does Arthas deserve the maw regardless? No. Honestly no-one deserves the maw from the get go. There are people who did equal or worse things than he did and they got Revendreth. The story is basically saying as such with Uther feeling guilty for dropping Arthas into the maw directly. Because of this he should be given a chance in Revendreth. His actions were for what he believed to be good intentions. I am aware of the Cdev quote and while I do not agree with it, simply being “evil” does not mean you get the maw and only the maw. In that same quote they mention the scarlet crusade and we see scarlet crusaders in Revendreth during questing.
If Arthas fails his atonement then so be it. He gets to be cast into the maw like Garrosh was. However if he does succeed in his atonement, which is flat out torture for the most part, he should get a happy ending. After all, he worked towards it.
Now to sit back and watch the petty insults etc come to my notifications box.
…I don’t know if I’ve already made this clear, but I don’t actually want Arthas to get a ‘happy ending’ per se- I want him to stay unrepentantly evil, stay the Lich King we fought in Wrath, and get an epic throwdown with Sylvie, such that even if she beats him down into the dirt with all her power and fury, he still gets to gloat and call her ‘his greatest creation, who still at least had part of a soul left, and yet walked the same path of genocide betrayal and slavery that he had, of her own choice’.
Arthas was a cool villain. Sylvanas was never cool anything to me; she was an enemy as Alliance and an untrustworthy and unpleasant ally as Horde. And she only got worse as time went on. Did Arthas do evil before he became Quasi-undead upon picking up Frostmourne? Yes, in fact I already previously specifically noted the point where I believe his motives switched from ‘get justice and to protect my kingdom’ to ‘get revenge and kill what I hate’.
Screw Sylvanas and all the bad writing bending over backwards to try to make me sympathize with this broken, ruined semi-Sue. I want her nameplate subtitle literally changed from ‘The Banshee Queen’ to ‘Deluded Hypocrite’.
… suff that I never said. That is why you even have to ask about your twisted delusions - even you can’t believe the nonsense you are spewing -
Small wonder you can’t grasp the lore. You can’t understand words at all, it seems. You just twist and invent what you want to see- and then you have to ask me if you even understand it, because you can’t even believe the tripe you are spewing.
Anyone can read what I typed and read what I am saying… except you, it seems. At least you make it clear that you don’t even believe your own nonsense, which is why you keep asking: “Are you saying…” “Are you saying…”.
Maybe you are illiterate and need some one to explain words to you, which is why after you read something, you then have to ask : “Are you saying…?”
That would explain why you know so little about the lore.
I explained it. The cinematic explained it. You can be wrong all day - it makes me laugh.
I know full well that the lore doesnt matter to you, and you only care about your head canon and your delusions about what people say - even when they never say such things.
But this is the lore forums, where we discuss the canon lore. So it does matter to the topic - you just don’t like lore that smashes your head canon.
Yes. He chose to wield the Mourneblade. And what happened afterward is the result of his choice. Sylvanas only made evil choices after Arthas violated her soul and raised her, and fragmented her. Arthas was of full sound mind and body and free will as he chose.
The people in the city were already dead. There was no changing it. They were not going to survive what was to come. The only question was do we limit and control the damage or do you give up and go back to capital city.
What do you mean he didn’t take responsibility, He did and he pursued the demon responsible to Northrend to make sure it never happened again.
This statement only works if you are referring to deathknight arthas who only heeded the voice of Nerzhul. Otherwise what you describe was never done by Arthas but actually Sylvanas. The only perfectly healthy people he killed were the Mercenaries and he didn’t care if they were saved or not. His mission was to save his people.
She could have left. She could have given up and go elsewhere, She did not heed Arthas’ advice to give up. See how this works? Her decision to keep going led her to evil.
Arthas took responsibility for Strathholm and pursued Malganis who was responsible for spreading the plague. Arthas could either wait and let it happen again or stop it from happening all together. If Arthas was more selfish he could have gone back to the Palace and be safe there until it was time to save his own skin and run away elsewhere. But he didn’t he chose to fight just as Sylvanas did.
