that doesn’t really fix the problem of vanish being buttcheeks to use as a dps cooldown, i want sd for every spec not because i want to just rip its identity out, its because when every spec did have shadow dance it felt 1000x better to use than vanish
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I hear you; I just don’t think any spec except Subtlety should be actively doing combat in a “stealth” empowered way.
Outlaw is thematically a Duelist; any stealth their spec brings should be to gain an upper hand as a Rogue rather than as an integral fighting tactic. Assassination is just that, an Assassin. They strike from the shadows, but once they’re revealed, they fight with their poisons and bleeds to finish the kill.
Subtlety is the only spec that uses stealth and shadows integrally to their core. The other 2 specs might have moments where fighting “in stealth” feels better mechanically, but I think it would be a huge disservice to just slap a band-aid over the issue with Shadow Dance again.
I think you’re stuck on Shadow Dance being the solution because you “had it before and it worked fine… why did they take it away” kind of mindset. But I don’t think that closes the door to finding a solution that works mechanically and thematically for each spec without siphoning key thematic abilities from each other.
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i would imagine a “ruthless fugitive” who’s themed around being dishonorable and fighting dirty would use anything they’ve got to get an advantage. and it’s actually funny you mention that because outlaw is the most reliant on vanish and stealth mechanics than the other two specs
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Look at the fun police over here. It truly is absolutely unacceptable that anyone would want to play a mix of 2 Rogue specs. Every spec has to stay in its own lane (even tho specs sharing techniques would be happening in any realistic world). Your point is moot.
To be honest it should be a choice. Making it mandatory for all three specs is the problem.
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I always find it so funny how there are people on here that are either staunch defenders of class fantasy, or people like you who couldn’t care less about it. It’s almost like people have differing opinions on how the MMORPG should go about class fantasy.
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The problem I think is that Outlaw relies on doing damage using stealth mechanics at times more than Sub which is crazy to think about.
Assassination still has a strong fantasy outside of stealth with bleeds and poisons so that is why it is considered the elite spec right now.
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Specs sharing abilities literally is class fantasy. Anyone thats good at their profession would be taking tips, tools, and techniques from someone else thats good at the profession (but in a different way) in order to improve. What do you think rogues are?
That’s fine. But Shadow Dance is not one of these abilities. Outlaw should be designed in a way where stealth isn’t such a crucial component to the rotation then. Or give them their own avenue to activate stealth mid-combat (that doesn’t require Vanish uses of course) more often if it’s such a pain point.
All Rogue specs use poisons. You don’t see me complaining that only Assassination should use poisons. No, Assass specializes in them, but all Rogues are proficient in poison use.
I’ve already explained why I think Shadow Dance is too thematic to share between the specs. If you don’t agree, that’s okay. But deep down you know I’m probably right. I think Blizzard should absolutely address this rotational annoyance with Outlaw in a way specific to Outlaw. Do not get it twisted.
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And Sub specializes in Shadow Dance usage with multiple talents to amplify its uptime and even buff ability damage while youre in it. Its treated no different than Sin poisons. You are wrong here. The wheel doesnt need to be reinvented for every spec and youre just proving the point for those of us that already knew you only wanted Shadow Dance gone cause you didnt think the name fit. Im not spending anymore time conversing with an idiot that cant even bother to post on his Rogue about Rogue things.
Lmao the insults at the end are the cherry on top. Congratulations. A meltdown for everyone here to see. No one should take the time out of their day to reply to you. Have a good one.
And just for any other readers to make my point a little stronger. Shadow Dance was added in Wrath of the Lich King at the bottom of the Subtlety talent tree. This meant you could not use it unless you talented for deep Subtlety. The spell has always been a Subtlety spell. Just because they added it to the very experimental class tree in Dragonflight, for one expansion mind you, doesn’t mean it’s now suddenly a class-wide ability, or that it should ever have been.
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Agreed and great points all around,.
Just giving Dispatch a chance based on spent combo points to enter a subterfuge window on its own once per 45s or so would go a long way to alleviating this problem for me at least; Let defensives/utility spells be defensives and stop trying to tie damage to them…
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with change to big cloak in pvp, i second this.
and smoke bomb should be baseline, it has uses in pve
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thats a horrible idea, making your spender have yet another rng chance for the spec to put you in a window where you want to use spenders (bte) is just weird and bad
i honestly think that if outlaw had a new ability that does the same thing as vanish but with a different name and visual would be enough to please people. the amoutn of you who want vanish to be a “utility defensive” and then end up never pressing it on your bars is just disturbing. that being said. its a waste of dev time to make a copy of an ability just with a different name/ visual to appease rper’s.
if shadowdance was named idk, parley for outlaw. non of this would be happening rn.
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for me its purely mechanical, they can come up with thematics later. being told “oh sorry no you can’t have a better gameplay experience because it wouldn’t be thematic sorry XDDDDDD” is just honestly irksome
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No offense but you had Shadow Dance for literally 1 expansion. If you don’t like thematics you’re playing the wrong game. Without class and spec fantasy (which the highly acclaimed expansion Legion reinforced), the game wouldn’t be the MMORPG we all love today.
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good gameplay should always come first, no exceptions. window dressing can come later
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The solution does not have to come at the expense of class/spec fantasy. If anything, you’re doing a disservice to yourself by asking Blizzard to take the easy route to fix the issue at hand.
The game designers can certainly come up with something to make Rogues feel better (on the whole even). Settling for something is a good way to keep the class feeling like it’s still stuck in Cataclysm design and utility-wise, which is a huge complaint.
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For me, yes and no.
I like the idea of forgoing defensive to further become a glass cannon. However, I don’t like the current iteration as it doesn’t really feel like it’s giving that much of a benefit. Yes, openers are stronger than standard combo builders and yes for a few seconds it gives access to a few different things that buff dps, but burning a full combat escape needs to give a higher weight than it currently has.
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