It’s like watching someone sh*t in the koolaid in real time. Dude doesn’t PVP or Raid on his DK at all but still feels like they’re the gatekeeper of the class.
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From 3.0-3.2 it was. It was really good for tanking. Once ToT come into the picture, it got way better. By 3.3.5 it was a solid DPS spec that was only out dps by Blood. I got this information from the days of Wrath, Youtube guides and good old google.
My position never changed. It seems you just don’t want to understand my point.
Then you can’t really use it as evidence to prove your cause.
Probably means that you should have a reason to press Obliterate instead of removing it from your bar. How would I know what they said, I haven’t seen the source material. There was a 2H playstyle, it consisted of using a 2H, focusing on haste and crit, and smashing obliterate for damage while ignoring Frost Strike unless for rp dump. You know the rotation you use now? That’s the 2H rotation. Difference now is that you don’t have to worry about not using one less runeforge.
I said we need to move past old builds and work on something new. Everyone seems to be stuck in the past, including you.
I didn’t say dps cared about it. I asked who was using agility 1hs. You told me Death Knights were using agility 1hs in Cata and I got worried on the information you were listening to. If a stat gives dodge and armor, I wonder what role would benefit from those stats. Oh right. A Tank. The same role DW Frost could fill.
If I had to make a guess, you either watched a terrible player or Shadowmourne was just as powerful as everyone thought. It gave you stupid amounts of damage. If you argument is that since he played 2H wrong is the reason why it should come back, then that is a stupid point to stand on.
Hence why removing off-hand procing would solve most of our problems.
It didn’t make me quit playing Frost. I have been a Frost Death Knight since I made my DK back in Cata. I started coming to the forums back when Legion took the option away. I have been a Heroic Raider (minus this expansion after Ghuun) since WoD. I suffered well with the death knight for a long time and that is why I want to see if in a viable state for both groups.
Yes, I hoped Blizzard would fix these mistakes but they are missing key things right now.
Then can we please just move on and make a better system for all? I’ll worry about all the old builds when the WotLK Classic server goes live.
Compared to Shadow Priest? Absolutely. We will have to see in prepatch just how bad it really feels. Not many are feeling confident tho.
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No, you constantly said statements like “only good for tanking” “DW was subpar” and so on. Then when confronted about it the narrative changes to “only good for tanking during this time frame” or “sub par during this time” which defeats your own statements. You can’t have it only be good for tanking or it being sub par when in the next statement you “clarify” what you meant. So why didn’t you just say what you meant from the beginning.
Maybe it was an attempt to continue this narrative that DW sucked and it shouldn’t have been the weapon that got chosen.
I can use it as evidence because people were complaining about it and the changes to HB and rime reflect that feedback. It’s not my fault that the old forums no longer exist.
And no, the rotation now is not the 2h rotation, it’s closer to the original frost rotation that both weaponsets used but you clearly are limited to MoP/WoD frost.
Why do you say I’m stuck in the past? Because you said something that was in the past like the playstyle now is the 2h playstyle, when it’s how DW played as well. Again, you didn’t care about KM procs in wrath. It was just in the background and was used depending on what part of the rotation you were in, wither the rune spending phase, or RP spending phase. In either phase it was being used up. The same for 2h, it just happened less.
This is like the 3rd time I’ve had to explain this too you.
Why would a tank use agi 1h weapons in Cata? Or even in Wrath. 1h str tank weapons existed. Dps dw frost death knights were using them because 1h str dps weapons didn’t exist in Wrath, and were extremely rare in Cata. Frost was dps in Cata by the way. You are just pulling things from the void at this point. It wasn’t like that back then.
Again, people ignored plague strike for an easier rotation down the line since ff was applied due to rune procs and you had more runes to use on Obliterate. But it was a weaker obliterate and you lost passive damage. The entire reason I brought this up, and brought up the video, is because this was the only other frost playstyle there was in Wrath, and this video exists that shows this playstyle in action. Him using Shadowmourne is irrelevant to the point.
Why remove an intended mechanic? Is there no way to buff 2h? At this point it’s like saying frost should have a ranged weapon option. If it can’t work in the current design then too bad. The option is back like people asked for. DW shouldn’t be nerfed to accommodate a weapon that just clearly doesn’t work as well even though it’s the only real way to balance things.
Suffered because of a weapon… even though you said it’s the playstyle you liked. Kind of shallow right?
No, not just shadow priest. Like I said frost currently is middle to upper middle in rankings which means it’s balance is in a pretty good spot.
Even in alpha the only real complaint is 2h is just worse.
I literally linked you my statements under your statements. Nothing has changed you are just trying to push this idea that I am back peddling. Read.
I never pushed that in any of back and fourths. I personally like the aesthetic of 2H and it seems you like the aesthetic of DW. I want them to coexist, you do not.
Then how do we, the people on these forums, know that why you are saying is true? The burden of proof. If you don’t have it, we can’t assure it.
Well that is when the rotations split. I will admit that you made me go back and relearn the Cata rotation. It was nice to remember that it was the same one we have now. So thank you for the refresher. Now if we can get two runeforges on 2H and the removal of off-handed procs on DW, we can bring those two weaponsets to a closer number range.
Because you think that just because 2H was bad in the past that it will be bad now. If we can just push for a common cause, we can make sure that it won’t end up that way.
I will say that I was stupid to say Cata or worse MoP. I should have said, Wrath or even worse Cata. That’s when the stats changed.
Who is really all over the place about their points? I was saying that if they were using agi 1hs is was because they were trying to go for more survival in wrath. You were the one who said they were using it for DPS builds in Cata.
Yeah, I know. That is why I was scared that you were listening to forum people who said that they used agi in cata.
Then you don’t understand how powerful the weapon was.
Suffered when the spec was bad, then good, then bad, then good. Through the nerfs and the buffs. When we were garbage in the first few weeks of Emerald Nightmare to when they we gods in Argus. I liked the weapon choice back in Cata, MoP and WoD. If you did anything with your Frost Death Knight, maybe you would understand what that felt like.
So you can die on your hill but god forbid if pro 2H players try. Balance is needed and if Blizzard wants the two weapon choices to work, they need to find some common ground somewhere. Perhaps they can do it without the off-hand proc rate, I would like to see what they would come up with.
Because of all the borrowed power.
Because numbers don’t matter in Alpha. That when Beta comes in and goes, “Time to tune this, and alittle of that.” After Beta and in the first two weeks of live, then we can say if it is in a good spot or not.
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And your statements that you didn’t link are still there where you said “only tanking” or “DW was subpar” without anything else. Blanket statements and all that people have to do is read this thread. You are trying to save face. End of story.
Oh, look, another blanket statement with absolutely nothing to support it. Never said I didn’t want them to exist. Just pointing out that they shouldn’t nerf something that has been intended since Wrath, to accommodate something that was always on the back burner and just caused issues when they tried to make it work by splitting the spec.
Its called being rational. If no one was complaining about it, and I’m sure you could find evidence of it on Icy-veins or mmo-champion, then why make the change? To make obliterate worth pressing as you said? Which is exactly what DW players didn’t like about the DW playstyle because it was changed from what it was initially? You know that playstyle you keep saying was specific to 2h only which is just 100% false.
2h was bad in the past and it is bad currently in Shadowlands so I would say I hit the nail on the head wouldn’t you agree?
Some did use agi weapons in Cata because getting ahold of 1h str weapons didn’t come easy. They were extremely rare. The mechanics difference more than made up going to 2h when using 2 1h agility weapons. It was like that in Wrath as well.
Wow, talk about going right over your head. I even explained why Shadowmourne was irrelevant in this case. You clearly didn’t read that part did you. The entire point to the “2h frost dk using Shadowmourne in pvp” was to show that there was a different playstyle and you could go to YouTube and look up that video and see this alternative playstyle that people used for an easier rotation where you ignored plague strike but got a damage/dps hit. Shadowmourne is irrelevant. He could have been using the fishing rod you could get in Bornean tundra. The weapon being used is irrelevant. The only 2 playstyle s in Wrath were the normal correct way with the maximum damage output, or ignoring one disease to have an easier rotation but missing out on damage.
So instead of somewhere down the line you would plague strike using an unholy rune to refresh blood plague, you just wouldn’t use it so your rune spending rotation would be 2 blood strikes to convert runes and 2 obliterates. We will call that rune rotation 1. Then 3 obliterates which we will call rune rotation 2. Of course you had rime procs that you would use, and also a dump phase. So it would be something like rune rotation 1, RP dump, rune rotation 2, RP dump, rune rotation 1, RP dump, rune rotation 2, RP dump and continue on since frost Fever would always be on the target. I brought up this dk so you can see that people did ignore plague strike. It’s even in Wrath guides that are still around. So again, Shadowmourne was irrelevant.
Oh lawdy no… oh no not the “you didn’t do anything on your dk argument”. I have more than 1 dk. And I did play on that, and even the logs reflect that frost during these times was crap. It was always behind. Now, when they can actually focus on the spec, it’s in a good spot. Would you look at that, who could have ever imagined that.
why do you think I suggested a complete frost rework? E en other 2h advocates have said DW shouldn’t be nerfed. There is absolutely no good way to do it unless they completely rework the spec, getting away from auto attack procs, and km isn’t even the only thing that would have to be addressed. There are even more things that use both DW weapons as triggers for certain things. It’s intended. Who knew that if you had a DW spec that you should incorporate both weapons.
All classes are losing borrowed power.
And alpha numbers do matter somewhat since if there isn’t some sort of balance you can’t test things properly. If corruption only did 1 damage then it wouldn’t be worth casting and this wouldn’t be tested properly. While you shouldn’t be looking at numbers tuning overall, at this stage, if something is clearly too weak or too strong people have given that feedback so they are actually able to test. It’s really simple.
Yeah, no. You are only seeing what you want to see. I never said it was only for tanking all of WotLK. You are trying to see that so your argument holds what little ground is left. I said it was outclassed by 2H Frost UNTIL ToT came into the picture. Here is the first reply I every made to this subject and you can go back and look at it yourself. ToT was introduced in 3.2 primarily because DW was weaker because your off-hand was barely doing anything to increase your damage.
You forget that this whole debate started over MotFW. Which I even said didn’t really need to come back. I would have just wanted it back to spice up things. If anyone is trying to save face, it is you. You want everyone in this thread to believe that I was to die on a hill I was never even on. yes, DW was only good in the beginning stages of WotLK for tanking. Then it got a big boost thanks to ToT. That has and will always be my statement on the subject. I never said it was terrible throughout Wraths lifespan, that is not true and you know that is not what I was getting at. Last time I am going to link my own statement that you clearly can’t read past, “DW was subpar to 2H and was only good for tanking.”
You know, that’s fair. You have said they you weren’t opposed to it coming back. The statement I do have a problem with is
I have a problem with this statement, because DW didn’t really work in Wrath until the brought in ToT. So my question is, “Why would Blizzard buff something that was clearly not intended to work as well as it should?” We both want a solution to the 2H and DW disparity problem. So let’s come up with ways to fix it.
mmo-champion.c o m/threads/755442-Shadowmourne-OP
(Don’t have trust lvl 3 so just unspace the com)
Hence why we are trying to have it changed before launch?
Why do you keep going back and forth on this point? Did they use them or didn’t they? You’ve said they did and you said that you didn’t say that. I have linked all of those in my posts. I will end the discussion right now.
mmo-champion.c o m/threads/811383-Do-DKs-use-agi
(Don’t have trust lvl 3 so just unspace the com)
Show us. Get on the other DKs. I would prefer to see your main class because I don’t believe you play DK other than for transmog/alt fun.
I’ve watched many alpha streams and in the DK discord, the community is split on that subject. I am with you on a rework, I have wanted it for a long time. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn’t touched Frost DK on Alpha since April. I think they don’t care enough about the spec to try and change it. (Watch, as soon as I say that a big ole patch is going to come out for them)
The argument that I was making is that Frost will suffer from losing it. I should say that Ice-cap is the one going to get hit the most since that whole build runs on borrowed power. However, BoS is considered borrowed because it resides in the talent tree and without it the spec feels slow and clunky. I should have done better to explain it but I need more time to look over the main gripes.
Right. I would say the proc rating of KM on DW vs 2H is why most of us are freaking out. Hence why some want a nerf to off-hand (me but I am flexible if a better solution is found) and those who don’t want it to be touched.
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No, I read what I read, and it’s there. Why do you think I responded in that way and later you had to clarify to save face? Those things that you linked, or I should say quoted, if your clarification.
And no, DW did work in wrath prior to ToT. A slow 1h weapon, or 2.6 sec weapon is around 75% of a 2h weapon, DW got the extra rune and more km procs since it got a chance to proc km every 1.3 seconds without haste or icy talons, while 2h was every 3.6 seconds. That’s almost 3 chances to proc for ever 1 that 2h had. ToT really just sealed its fate.
Omg, ignored the entire point about Shadowmourne. I even explained why it was irrelevant and you just completely ignored it. You are clearly just mining for stuff to say something against when you didn’t even read 1/10 of that section that just so happened to have Shadowmourne included. That is the biggest strawman I have ever seen holy cow.
Talk about being all over the place. You said, just because 2h was bad in the past that it will be bad now. I said that it is bad now. It’s objective, it’s worse. Find a way to fix 2h without nerfing an indented mechanic which isn’t even limited to that one mechanic. There is even more going on other than 2 rune forges and km procs.
How about you actually take what is being said than worrying about my other characters. There is a reason I don’t post on them, and it’s because of how people behave on these forums where they will harrass you in game. Pretty reasonable wouldn’t you think? Once you start the “you don’t play” argument instead of what that person is saying you already lost.
They haven’t really touched the fundamentals of the specsince wrath. If you want it to have 2 weapon sets to use, the spec should be designed from the ground up with that in mind. It wasn’t designed that way though which is why all these issues with 2h have persisted.
Icecap, if they change things with the covenant signature abilities, will go the night fae covenant. Str boost with pillar instead of after pillar trying to get an overlap due to corruption boosting secondaries like crazy.
Tell me why an intended mechanic, meaning it was designed to do that, should be nerfed to accommodate an aesthetic choice? Frost is the absolute perfect evidence why a spec trying to DW while making the offhand actually matter otherwise it’s just a 1h spec, and having a single 2h doesn’t mix at all. It’s like 2h enhance… it wouldn’t work and they would have to nerf DW which is the intended design.
Link the posts where I was try to save face.
You already did that… I don’t know what you actually want here.
I need to see where your reading skills fail so that I can help you along. Kind of like a teacher with a student that doesn’t quite get it yet.
Says the person who just doesn’t read, at all. Why would I try to take lessons from you exactly?
Except the the fact that I matched all your points, correct my own when needed and gave constructed reasoning as to what we should be focusing on. But if you honestly believe you are still in the right on this, I got some bad news for you bud.
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Matched all my points? What was the point of me saying Shadowmourne was irrelevant to the point being made?
So you completely ignored the mmo-champion thread of people wondering how bad players can still win with Shadowmourne? I gave you evidence of my claim that Shadowmourne was so ridiculously good that you don’t have to press buttons correctly to kill someone. You talk about it being a different playstyle but it was literally just that Shadowmourne provided so much strength and power that you could destroy someone without putting Blood Plague on them.
Why do you think I said that Shadowmourne was irrelevant to the point that was being made? And no, I didn’t read that thread because that was also irrelevant to the point.
So again, why did I say Shadowmourne was irrelevant to the point being made?
Nice dodge.
Had you read the thread, you would have noticed that the playstyle you are so focused around is because Shadowmourne and it’s ability to kill. Rather than because Plague Strike was garbage. Granted it was but the PvP video wasn’t calling on that.
So I will say this one last time for the people in the back. Shadowmourne was incredibly powerful so not pressing plague strike didn’t matter.
Why did I say that Shadowmourne was irrelevant to the point being made?
Probably to save your face.
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No, it’s because the playstyle was not exclusive to using Shadowmourne and people used this playstyle because it was EASIER TO EXECUTE.
So if it was easier to execute, wouldn’t one say that Shadowmourne is a necessity to the overall build? Once the easier option presents itself, it becomes the norm and the basis around the whole plan. Thus, dummies can kill with Shadowmourne.