DK needs love

Classes Death Knight
41

this is where your lack of experience lets you down. You don’t seem to understand the encounters and how that makes frost seem better than it is by glancing at the warcraft logs.

Currently, kyrian Obliteration is top performing sim in ST for fDK…but as you would have noticed all top logs are BoS. With the exception of maybe The Nine, all the cleave damage is just pad. Some people argue its not pad if the adds needs to die in a certain time but in most cases the raid’s natural cleave will easily take care of them so I don’t see add focused damage as super important.

I know you love tooltips, so I’m sure you noticed BoS is very heavily weighted towards aoe/cleave. So when you breakdown the pad vs priority damage, its bulk damage is sitting in the pad where as other classes can still pad like fDK, most of the damage is sitting in the priority damage. So frost DKs look better than they are in the logs because they can Pad REALLY well, better than most classes. Its also why BoS has been pretty successful in m+, but its lack of other utility means other classes are picked for MDI level comps.

Obliteration is pretty mediocre at aoe/cleave…so it doesn’t get the benefit of super padding its parses. So its left behind being pretty average.

So to answer your question, what would performing decently mean? being within 5% of top performing class’ priority damage. And if Obliteration cant compete with BoS for cleave/aoe, it needs much more ST output to compensate.

42

What reason would you not include the top and the bottom? The same reason why people dont look at top parses because top parses are as close to a perfect scenario, and the bottom people can be extremely bad or they can also purposefully make something seem lower than it actually is. The more parses you have the more it averages out, but if you take the absolute top and the absolute bottom out of the equation it doesnt really impact the outcome.

How would buffing frost be harmful? Depends on what is being buffed and a buff could lead to nerfs. Frost was nerfed after KM rank 2 was introduced which negatively impacted peoples gaming experience because people are still complaining about that nerf to this day. When you have a decent hitting ability, and then you increase that (depending on mastery levels and other % increases) 5x it gets out of hand really fast which means a nerf has to take place for that 5x times damage to average out to around a stable figure. So if everyone is doing say 2.5 damage with one ability, your ability if it has a 5x modifier (used for simplicity) the base damage of your ability has to be around 1. This might not be 100% accurate, but people are going to complain about that 1 value and ask for the ability to be buffed even though it seems like they are ignoring the modifier on the ability.

Frostscythe for example has a 4x crit modifier so the base damage is pretty low.

MotFW, a buff, negatively impacted the spec my making aoe suck for 2h. If you buff Obliterate even more, that makes aoe even worse, so a buff would be negatively impacting people that already dont like that 2h aoe is lacking since it would be putting even more emphasis on single target.

Saying that there would be nerfs, is not the same as saying that something needs it. And I was right when I said that there would be nerfs was I not? Someone who doesnt “play the game” seen it from a million miles away but a bunch of people that does “play the game” couldnt see it coming or cant understand why the nerfs were made in the first place?

There are plenty of buffs that can negatively impact the gaming experience. This is what happens when you tunnel vision Obliterate, or a weapon set and totally ignore the spec at large and then the expansion hits and people scramble and freak out making threads like these even though its pretty damn balanced in blizzards eyes.

Its weird how now that Frost is also only 5-6% behind in dps that now dps doesnt matter and its damage done that actually matters when from the launch until now people were using DPS as the metric. DPS translates into damage done over the course of a fight. I dont know of any way where someone can be 30% behind in damage yet only be 5% behind in dps. It doesnt work out that way. They should be 30% behind in dps as well meaning that with people doing 10k, the frost dk should only be doing 7k.

10k over a 5 minute fight would be doing 3m damage. 7k over a 5 minute fight would be doing 2.1m damage which is a 30% decrease in damage done. DPS and damage done has a direct link to each other. So are you trying to say that Frost is actually around the 7k mark despite the logs saying otherwise? Something isnt actually connecting here unless you are trying to say that Frost is padding and none of it is accurate. Why wouldnt other classes pad as well? And if bosses are dying why do you or anyone else care?

43

Lack of experience bs. Not reading anything past that. Quit with that line or else im just not interacting with you anymore and im just going to keep saying what im saying. You could have information in there worth something but I dont really care.

44

this would be the dream.

5 Likes
45

:face_with_hand_over_mouth: this is how I ended up on Kellistes ignore list.

4 Likes
46

-Exasperated sigh-

Also why is Soul Conduit for Runes not a thing? Koltira’s can only get me far. :L

inb4, bUt yOu hAVe aRr PeE tO rEsTOre yOuR rUnEs.

I get more Rime procs for more rune-related bonuses I guess thanks to me swapping to NL.

47

We’re going to have to agree to disagree about the spec needing buffs. I’m going to continue to advocate for buffs and talent re works etc.

6 Likes
48

So am I forcing you to reply with your condescending remarks or are you doing it of your own free will?

49

Talents should be reworked because there are a lot of dead ones. And no, im not agreeing to disagree. There are many reasons why a melee would be 30% behind in boss damage. Being forced off the boss for certain mechanics that ranged arent punished for. For instance hungering. Melee had to get out while ranged could still do dps. Or Lady Deathwhisper where melee werent on the boss until her shield was down and they were on add management until the mana shield was taken down by the ranged.

Just saying 30% less damage doesnt = needs buffs. No one said anything about the uptime which would be important when you are looking at damage done to the boss. If the melee cant be on the boss but they can attack adds then they are still doing something worth while with add management and that should be taken into consideration as well.

When going over the Frostscythe thing earlier with DW at least, KM procced off of a miss. Just through auto attacks my main hand said “MISS” and KM procced. Dont know if its some kind of bug, dont know if its something where misses still roll to see if they are critical misses where it would still count as a critical strike or what. Didnt notice it happen with 2h, but it definitely happened with DW that I noticed. But I bet people would want some kind of video proof or something, which at that point just go test it out to see if its happening with others, because if it is happening that might be throwing stuff off in sims as well.

Talent reworks however, yes. Icy Talons needs a rework of some kind of just made how it was and be baseline, hypothermic isnt needed what so ever in the spec, Horn of Winter is basically blood tap with another name, Ive never liked Frozen Pulse since it goes against how you should play Frost and it isnt active enough to really make any use out of it, Glacial Advance has basically always been bad because it has a cd and an RP cost, Icecap was propped up with high secondaries and Icy Citadel where you could clip Icy Citadel with the new Pillar giving you even more strength which isnt there anymore. Frostscythe is kind of getting a buff but its not going to be at the same strength that it was in BFA.

But seriously, check out that miss thing with KM procs. Again I dont know if it was just a bug, or if misses also roll to see if its a crit just for the sake of KM procs so it could be a miss, but still check the box of saying that it was a crit.

50

Weird question Arbiter. Did you have a UD rogue back in vanilla? Like T1 & T2 geared? On Arthas?

51

Since you nor anyone else cared that there might be a bug happening and to do any testing, I did more testing to figure out what is actually going on. Km procs, at least for DW, happen before the crit actually happens which makes it look like misses and non-crits are procing Killing Machine. It even happens with 2h, but the attacks are so slow that its not proccing anywhere close to the previous auto attack.

Also, 2h seems to have 100% hit chance but 1h weapons actually have a chance to miss. Around 13-15% of DW autos miss and it doesnt matter if you are in front of or behind the target. This has been over around 10 minutes of just auto attacking. But why does DW miss when MotFW is supposed to equalize KM procs? So not only does 2h get Obliterate damage increase, increased chance to proc KM, but it also has a 100% hit chance just in an attempt to balance the weapons out?

Lets get rid of those DW misses. I mean people are saying 2h is ahead of DW with Obliteration, might as well get rid of those misses to balance them out.

52

Miss and Crit occupy their own space on the auto attack hit outcome spectrum. A critical attack cannot miss. This means that the misses have no effect on the KM proc rate.

Do you have a log of this that I can take a look at?

3 Likes
53

No log required, just a screenshot of the combatlog would be sufficient, including buffs applied and autos (both hits and misses).

I think what you might be confused by is the delay between the damage event and the actual white-hit numbers showing up. If you follow along with the combat log there’s a delay between the attack landing and the white number appearing. I’ve provided a gif where you can see this.

The KM proc happens at the same time as the crit, it’s just the attack animation and white-hit number that is delayed.

5 Likes
54

What does

have to do with KM procs? What I was talking about was KM procs since those misses never got a chance to roll to see if they were a crit in the first place, but the quote has absolutely nothing to do with that you responded with.

The order of operations would be to see if the attack even hit before you see if its a critical. Critical attacks cant miss because the hit was already rolled for and determined that it was a hit to even roll for a critical hit. So it WOULD have an effect on the KM proc rate since if those misses would have been hits then they could have rolled for crits and KM procs if it turned out the critical hit was true.

No im not confused at whats happening. I dont sit all day in the combat logs as its own game. The fact of the matter is that the animation and what happens in the combat log shouldnt be desynced at all which would create what I was seeing. Are you calling me a liar? Again, im not confused at what was happening since I figured it out BEFORE you came in talking about logs because it seems thats the only thing you understand.

55

This is not how it works. All outcomes are rolled at the same time. It’s old stuff, but have a look at this page: https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_table

56

The article is saying its a single die roll with various numbers on that die being a certain outcome for that action and that is just speculation by the playerbase.

All outcomes being rolled at the same time doesnt mean its a singular die and each outcome can be its own die being rolled which there is more evidence pointing to multiple dies being rolled instead of just one.

If you take what all Blizzard has said according to the article, each outcome is its own die roll and there is a precedence to each die which the precedence order has been given by Blizzard. They also said that crit rate is over all attacks, so if you have 5% crit rate that 5% chance includes misses.

To me that doesnt mean that if it determines if its a crit, that it will also hit, that means that misses can also roll being a crit, but since misses are higher in precedence it doesnt matter if that roll has crit = true. Since miss = true it doesnt matter what all the other die rolls are since miss has the highest precedent.

Having a precedence means that it looks to find if things are true or false so that outcome has to be rolled for. Blizzard basically said back in 06, that misses also roll to see if they are crits. Later evidence with the look into why there is server lag when around 20 people are around, shows that its a bunch of die being rolled at the same time. So while it wasnt accurate to say order of operations, I should have said order of precedence.

It probably should be an order of operations in that if it determines that its a miss then all other outcomes arent rolled taxing the server and creating lag. If miss = true why roll for anything else?

57

Negative sir, I started in BC but didn’t pick up rogue till wrath.

Undead/belf for life though, this rogue was undead from end cata till legion for target profile size and anti fear.

58

Okay so I went to hit a dummy to prove you wrong. Let’s make the assumption crits can indeed miss (or as you worded it, the game rolls for a miss first and doesn’t continue to a crit roll if you miss)

16.23% crit
2000 auto attacks in total.
1684 non-misses ( 15.8% misses)

We expect to get 1684 x 0.1623 = 273.3132 critical auto attacks.

Actual number was 307. We calculate the probability of getting 34 more crits than expected. Binomial distribution gives a standard deviation of sqrt(p x (1 - p) x n) = sqrt(0.1623 x (1 - 0.1623) x 1684) = 15.1312. Our result was therefore 34 / 15.1412 = 2.25 standard deviations away from the assumed mean. This happens with a likelihood of .012224 or about 1%. I can say with ~99% certainty that crits cannot miss.

Just to show the other side, assuming crits cannot miss, we get:

We expect 2000 x 0.1623 = 324.6
Again, we calculate standard deviation: 16.5

This is 1.067 standard deviations away from our assumed mean. Probability here is ~14% and the result isn’t significantly different.

TL DR: you are wrong and I am right.

Data:

2 Likes
59

So you are saying that Blizzard is wrong since they said

“The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks, crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.”

People assumed what this meant and tried to interpret what it meant instead of taking it face value along with other Blizzard information that was put out like the auto attack table which is also in the article that you linked.

"The tables are laid out in descending order of the precedence of one attack result over another. That is to say the entries at the top of the table take precedence over the entries below them. This precedence order is from Blizzard, and as such is accurate.

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing Blow
Block
Critical Hit
Crushing Blow
Ordinary hit

What it looks like is each of these are each their own roll and can either have a true or false outcome.

So if a list looks like

Miss=true
Dodge = false
parry = false
Glancing Blow = true
Block = false
Critical hit = true (since blizzard said crit chance is applied to all attacks)
Crushing blow = false

Its going to be a miss since miss has higher precedence, over crit being true.

Saying crits cant miss is different than misses can crit. To even have a crit the miss roll would have to = false meaning that it would be a hit, then dodge parry and block would also have to come back as false but if those were true, you could still roll a critical = true but the fact that dodge parry and block take precedence over a critical hit means that you wouldnt get that critical hit even though the outcome was “true”.

You are looking at it backwards for some reason thinking crit takes a precedent over all other outcomes which is NOT what blizzard stated.

Everything in that article, admitted by the article, is just an assumption based on the initial tweet.

Even ex blizzard employees have talked about there being so many different calculations going on at the same time especially with the removal of snapshotting that its creating the lag in the game with more rng things stacked on top of the amount of calculations going on.

TL DR: you got my premise entirely wrong from the start so you cant be correct because you didnt even argue my point. Misses can crit.

60

How do you explain my results? You’re just misinterpreting what blizzard has said. I’ve shown you the data that proves the DW misses don’t affect the total number of crits.

2 Likes