No, Obliterate is not a ST focused talent, its not even a talent. I dont like new death knights trying to talk about the class that hasnt even read the talents and abilities. Its Obliteration and it just forces KM procs. Just because frostscythe was capped and not compensated for the cap does not mean that Obliteration is a ST talent. Its just not, sorry you are wrong. There is no debate here other than Frostscythe is weaker than it should be with the cap being applied to it right now and going forward. There was no compensation for it. With the implementation of KM rank 2 you needed Frostscythe to have access to 8+targets for 2h (thats 3 more targets than its cap) to beat out the damage that Obliterate was doing and for DW it was 5+. The nerf brought it down so it is worth using Frostscythe with a certain mob density and it just depends on if that mob density has been achieved or not. So no, its not a ST focused ability.
More cherry picking of info to suggest Frost should be buffed. So any logical person would say if they have 30% less damage, yet they are still within 5%, then if they had more uptime they would be doing even more dps and in turn do more damage. So no, its not the only stat that matters. You cant just cherry pick the information you want to present like you are some CNN host because it suits your argument better.
It sounded like you were talking about Obliteration being behind in ST and AoE, so no not actually consistent.
You say I have no idea what im talking about yet you keep saying an ability as a talent. Ooooo the old no experience line like I havent heard that 1000 times already and it has always been a complete and utter useless tactic. It serves no purpose but to stroke your own ego. Again, you dont know the difference between Obliterate and Obliteration. Its pretty important when you are trying to convey information to get right what you are trying to talk about.
So dont talk about playing the class when the people âplaying the classâ cant even get the information correct when they are âplaying the classâ.
Quit your whining and play. Its not a bad class, you just get reamed by better players is all. Not my problem and its not Blizzards to buff up a class that you cant play to its fullest.
youâre either trolling or stupid, maybe both. as YOU HAVE SAID, frostscythe is weak and not played. so the fact that obliteration causes KM procs means that they are EXCLUSIVELY used on obliterate in all scenarios (if someone is trying to play optimally). SO OBLITERATION IS A ST FOCUSED TALENT. read that about 9 more times and you may begin to understand.
this is totally incoherent (sensing a pattern thereâŠ)
I didnt say that, you just had a comprehension problem (sensing a pattern there tooâŠ)
iâll happily concede that I meant to say obliteration, the talent, not obliterate, the ability. this was fairly obvious from context, but again we have the comprehension issues.
experience is totally relevant. probably more so than anything else (and certainly more so than whatever authority you think you have to speak on these issues). Iâm giving constructive feedback on how to make the spec more competitive in all forms of content and you, a person who doesnât play the spec, are saying⊠dont do that, its fine?
not sure where this is coming from. im a CE raider with quality logs. feel free to look them up. again, you have no idea what you are talking about
Im neither. And yes, Frostscythe got 0 compensation when a cap was put on, but that does NOT mean that it cant or shouldnt be used. You are acting like no matter what Obliterate is better than Frostscythe which is entirely fabricated to suit your argument that Obliteration is âST focusedâ. The mob density matters. You arent going to be using Frostscythe on 1-2 mobs, but 3-5 absolutely. Maybe if you werent going around calling people stupid you would do some verification testing on your claims.
Im sorry that you also dont understand english but thats not my problem.
is not incoherent. It means you are cherry picking information to make things sound worse because 30% sounds worse than 5%. But in actuality, a 5% decrease in dps = 5% less damage over the course of the same fight with 100% uptime. If you start with 10k dps, over a 5 minute fight, thats 3,000,000 damage done. If you remove 5% dps that would be 9500 dps and over the same 5 minute fight they would do 2,850,000 damage which is surprise surprise a 5% decrease in damage done. Thats why I said that if they are doing 30% less damage, there has to be a reason and its not the DPS output. The math proves you wrong.
You might not say something directly but you can imply it by omitting context, dont blame me for your screw ups.
No, experience is not relevant here and you arent giving constructive feedback on how to make the spec more competitive because its ALREADY COMPETITIVE. Also, M+ is highly aoe centered, yet Frost isnt taken and a lot of melee arent taken because the cap which was directed towards melee was to prevent people from taking melee due to them being taken over ranged due to high aoe numbers. This was directly from Blizzard and increasing Obliterate is not going to fix that issue. PvP has other issues and you dont have to be some raider or pvp player to see a glaring issue. KM rank 2 makes it so that Frost does hardly any pressure outside of PoF windows. You are reliant on those windows because people build mastery and versatility and the base crit is not enough to actually help with getting KM procs which is important.
Now, getting back to the Obliteration thing. It only takes DW 3 mobs for Frostscythe to beat out Obliterate damage. So 3+ mobs Frostscythe would be good to use in terms of DPS making Obliteration a not ST focused talent like you want to say it is. But I hear you already asking about 2h, well it only takes 4 mobs again defeating your point that Obliteration is ST focused. Its not, you just have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and are going off of what OTHERS say. How is that âexperienceâ helping you now? The math says you are wrong on every front.
The spec is only 5% behind, 6% at worst, go play it and quit your whining.
As Nethy stated, I wouldnât waste your time with Kelliste. Youâre talking to a player who thinks Sleet is a niche ability and overall not a good ability; who thinks Frost Strike is fine the way it is. Perhaps heâs the only one I know who pretty much told CE or a competitive rated player to âgit gudâ.
Even Bicepsbump is fed up with him.
Itâs wise to ignore him at this point and take everything he says with a grain of salt as it is now a general rule of thumb of the DK community.
⊠and besides, he lost patience with us, doesnât care about our experience, our opinion and our accomplishments and yet heâs still posting with his unwanted opinion so thatâs an oxymoron thatâs not really our problem.
Itâs only fitting that you should be dismissive towards him in turn.
ill explain this again in different words. frost scythe is not worth using in any SL content right now. there is no scenario where you are cleaving 5 mobs for such a long period of time that would make avalanche worth losing. so again, there is no scenario where you run frost scythe, and thus, there is no scenario where obliteration has AoE implications. what youâre saying is âwell if frost scythe was worth using, obliteration would be an aoe talent too.â yes, it would be. but frostscythe isnât worth using, so its not. reply to this again and I can try to help you understand again (third time might be the charm!)
im talking about actual logs, not theoretical sims, which dont really matter. sims are almost always relatively close to each other. actual logs take into account the specifics of raid mechanics (which does sometime include lost uptime, which I never even mentioned). and congrats you can multiply numbers by .95! iâm actually genuinely surprised considering the intellectual ability youâve displayed in your other comments. I dont know what is has do with anything ive said but really great job with using that calculator! fdk is roughly 30% behind top performers in actual logs on boss damage, the most important metric when evaluating raid performance.
lol
its not. thatâs why its not played in competitive environments.
everything about this is wrong. see my explanation above about how there are no scenarios where it is worth not taking avalanche. also herein lies the issue with experience. here we have you, who has no idea what heâs talking about, looking at the tool tip for frost scythe and thinking âoo it beats an obliterate cast at 3 or 4 targetsâ in total damageâ. yes it does. and when you are hitting that little cluster of target dummies (the only enemies in wow I think you are skilled enough to fight-though it would probably be a pretty even battle), frost scythe would be usable. then there is me, who actually has experienced the game and the spec, who can easily see that overall, avalanche is better in all scenarios because it brings solid ST and helps in AoE (that isnât dependent on a certain number of targets). experience is tantamount and is why you should get off these forums. go bother a different class with your terrible ideas
And so a thread that started off productive with people stating what theyâd like or ideas of what would be nice for frost turns into another Kelliste argument that will never end.
Cherry picking logs is just that. Anyone can do it, its not some amazing feat. I can pick the Tarragrue to say Windwalker needs a buff but it actually doesnt. Thats the good thing about taking the ENTIRE raid and not just one boss here and there and think you are making some kind of point. With the Tarragrue Windwalker is almost last, but overall its 4th in the 90th percentile.
Top performers are also very bad to look at because those are the logs where everything goes almost perfectly.
It is. Its just people like you make a big stink of it being garbage when it actually isnt.
I like how you think math is somehow wrong because it goes against what you think because âim a CE raiderâ tell that to someone who cares. You are wrong.
its not and I already explained why. remember that you are losing avalanche when you take frost scythe. so just the fact that frost scythe will hit 4 targets harder than obliterate will hit 1 doesnât mean that its playable. you will always do more damage with avalanche in all content you are doing. there are no exceptions to this rule in SL.
if you think looking at all percentiles on boss damage for all bosses in SoD is cherry picking, then youâre just lost. im not looking at just top performers and im not looking at just one fight (which you seem to be suggesting I am). and you talking about WW further proves this point. currently WW has some of the worst pure ST in the game (the class is entirely carried by its burst AoE). it probably also needs a buff or a talent rework (but I wouldnât pretend to know the best way to go about that because I dont main a WW)
ive never met someone here who is so horribly misinformed about a topic, yet seems so passionate about arguing about it. everything you have said is stupid, wrong, unproductive, or usually some combination of all three. go play the class and you might learn something
And no people take avalanche because its just an all around good choice for single target because Frostscythe sucks there, not to mention that the cap is being removed from Frostscythe though its going to have scaling past a certain density. You havent shown anything, you just stated something as is without anything to back it up. Avalanche also requires Rime, and you also dont need KM for Frostscythe to crit, just for it to crit on up to 5 people right now. Kind of weird you didnt take that into account and stated some blatantly uninformed statement like
You said top performers
See, top performers. There was nothing else there, that was it. You closed it out with this
Which can mean boss damage from the top perfomers are the most important metric when it comes to evaluating raid performance.
Its funny that you want to call me stupid or a troll but want to get the point where I was using WW as an example for entirely wrong despite it being explained to you that it was just for cherry picking purposes and nothing else. The point was that went over your head was that I can cherry pick anything I want to to make it seem one way or another. Not that its good in single target or bad in aoe. It was cherry pick this one thing to say it needs buffs despite it performing well in the raid overall. I dont know how that went over your head but it clearly did.
You say im misinformed yet have nothing to show for it. All you have done is try to shut information down with you being a âCE raiderâ like it actually means something of any significance when you couldnt even get the name of a talent correct.
I do play the class, just not in the areas you deem worthy, people like you are the reason why WoW is going into the dumpster. Elitists that just think because they do something someone else doesnt that they are somehow smarter. Thats a dilution that is prevalent with people with doctorates and some highschool dropout completely dunks on them when it comes to actual problem solving. So what if you raid, it doesnt mean you are smart, it just means you did a raid and woooo what an accomplishment.
Its also kind of weird how you say you are a raider on a Frost Dk yet say its garbage. Cant be bad when you are 9/10 mythic eh? Completing the content yet complaining about something that isnt even worth complaining about. You guys just want to be on top so that your class matches your ego.
I think technically frostscythe will beat out avalanche when there is exactly 5 targets as obliteration. Any more or any less and itâs a dps loss over taking avalanche.
So absolutely not worth taking it.
The math doesnât lie. But seems you are not tanking into account the damage that avalanche does when comparing frostscythe. Avalanche will be doing extra damage in st when frostscythe does nothing, and avalanche has no AoE cap so out performs it very quickly when you stack on numbers.
The only time I can see frostscythe worth taking is when playing icecap, which doesnât help the obliteration is ST debate.
Avalanche needs Rime in order to do anything, Frostscythe doesnt. While Avalanche is good in ST which I admitted to if you bothered to do some reading it still needs a rime proc to do anything at all. You cant just spam Howling Blast and get Avalanche like you can spam Frostscythe even outside of KM procs and get aoe damage.
There is no debate, this was taken care of long ago when people were saying its a st talent. Its not. All that it does is provide KM procs, thats it. KM procs can be used on both Obliterate (st) and Frostscythe (aoe/cleave) right? Right, so its not a st talent. Its just not, it doesnt matter how many times whoever says they are a mythic raider, or whatever bs authoritative bs they want to spew, it doesnt change the blatant fact that its not a st talent. It just isnt. People need to stop saying that just like people need to stop saying that the the non-km obliterates need to be buffed. They cant be without impacting the top.
Frostscythe is better when it comes to Icecap, and its better with DW as well, all you need is something to crit with Frostscythe, Frost Strike or Obliterate, that means main hand or offhand for the last 2 abilities, and Frostscythe just needs to crit on an enemy. It however doesnt provide what KM rank 2 wants you to have, KM procs or else you lose out on a lot of damage in PoF windows with weaksauce Obliterates.
Just ignore, sometimes sheâs a good foil for devils advocate, most times not.
Op would definitely be an improvement and its one path to getting the class back performing decently. I donât see them re designing the conduits (which are trash, esp frost) or fixing legendary items to be better but I would like to see some sort of aoe option for frost strike, glacial advance is bad.
Ga is bad in a few different ways, one its cd is reduced by haste in a spec that does not stack haste. It only applies one stack of RI. It has a small frontal cone, and damage tuning is poor.
Iâd think adding FS to rime, not making it free but giving it the ability to hit 8 targets would solve the issue.
Frost scythe died in legion when machine gun got killed. Devs need to stop using dead talents to fill our trees so it looks like we have options. Same with Pestilance with unholy. Pure eye candy so we donât have a row with a blank.
Unholy needs to have epidemic reduce the CD of dark xform same as coil, Apoc can be adjusted in several ways to make sure the two line up time wise.
Of course the above paired with the op. Outside breath my rogue will dropkick a 240+ fdk in any content, any add count. Not using EON or any other specialty gear, just mechanics. Also a bit funny to note that sub buffs Blood link via a conduit but unholy mastery and conduits do not, same with frost and Winds of Winter.
What would performing decently mean in this case? 5-6% behind the top class in the case for frost isnt performing poorly.
Frostscythe was also used throughout legion and BFA. The target cap cut its power this expansion. It was good while Icecap was being propped up by corruption gear.
Rogues are doing pretty good right now, each spec.
Unholy is the odd one out being like 9-12%? behind the top. Thats out of blizzards target of 5%. We have seen much much worse balance than this before between the classes and specs. Its pretty good at the moment.
not the right number, the general statistics page on WCL doesnât include the top or bottom end parses, some sort of weird internal filter or averaging system. Thatâs why people (correctly) use boss damage, or the top 50 like Iâve done in the past.
How would buffing frost be harmful to your gaming experience? Because
Best overall raid class? Yeah, Iâd say so.
if that were dk and not rogue youâd be yelling for nerfs. You already covered the ground in beta/9.0 so no bother denying it.
