I’m am starting to hate this class, especially frost. And when you point out bad design, people say git gud. At this point make us an assist spec so we bring something
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Honestly the thing i hate the most about dk in m+ is not even its design, its that there’s 0 appeal to bringing it as a dps. Its toolkit doesnt bring enough to warrant bringing it over just about any other class.
Grip is kinda nice and they have a cr, I’d prefer a dk over a warrior tbh.
You’ve run into some of the resident posters here then.
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There’s people that want Frost to be blue Arms and want anything non-strike related removed (RW, BoS, Wyrm, etc) and revolve around 1 button.
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There’s people that like Frost as it currently is and either want DND cleave to stay as is or be tied to RW and revolve around 1 button.
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There’s people that feel Frost doesn’t have a real identity and is severely lacking on fun, engagement, and/or overall design.
The first two groups are incredibly loud and vocal on these forums, and if Blizzard does any work based on feedback from those two groups, the spec might as well be removed because people aren’t going to play it.
And I’m not saying I have the answers - I certainly don’t - but moving away from the magical theme of DKs to just be more strike based like Warriors and/or putting more power into Obliterate is 100% the wrong direction to go when Frost already doesn’t feel remotely like a Death Knight. Yeah, you have AMS, DND, and Grip, but where’s the undead aspect, the minions, diseases, death magic? Completely non-existent for the spec.
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Honestly putting dnd down should just give you stacks like sweeping strikes did for warriors in classic expansions. Easy and simple solution till the rework we really need.
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I’m pretty new to Dk, but once I get it rolling, I really love all the DND cleave. I also use a macro that casts DND/defile at my feet, and another on a different keybind that does @cursor. That really helped smooth things out for me.
Granted I am but a wee casual and have not really stepped into M+ yet (lack of interest, mostly) but I like the defile build for unholy in raid too.
I think the only complaint I have is sometimes during ad phases, by the time I’ve set up and I’m ready to start tearing into mobs, they’re around half hp or less and I don’t get to really pump as much as I feel I could have. I’m getting quicker though, fight familiarity has helped me there more than anything; being able to plan out when and where to drop it is pertinent.
As Unholy, im actually enjoying m+ so far, as i dont mind yet popping pimples and i try to use dnd according to encounter knowledge/ pull patterns. My only complaint as well is the ramp upmtime,which i find hindered most by just how manh GCDs you have to endure to get it started. If they could combine or streamline the use of one or two aoe abilities itd feel alot better.
Raid is another beast though. As a warrior main since vanila, ive always enjoyed a good execute, but between cost and lack of synergy with both other talents and rotation, i wish Soul Reaper was more fun and/or impactful
I have played a LOT of classes in m+ this and last season and there’s next to no classes I feel as useful on as my dk. You want to feel useless play a warrior. Dk has so much utility is ridiculous
Because you’re playing sub 2k. In any form of Raiding and higher M+, DPS DKs are useless compared to any other melee DPS. The only unique thing DKs actually bring is Grip, and that really only shines on Sanguine weeks; it’s a good ability but it’s not “bring this over another [M]DPS” good.
Outside of that:
- Every melee has an AoE stun.
- Mostly every melee has a group buff/benefit (like AMZ), with most having at least 2.
- Every melee has easy access to stuns and their utility (Cleanse, Soothe, etc) or has it baseline.
- Every melee brings similar damage when played by an equally skilled player.
All these posts you see of anyone saying that “Frost DK pumps” or brings good damage are biased, because if those players ever played with an entirely equally skilled group as them, they’d barley be doing +/- 2-3% overall, which isn’t enough of a reason to bring a DK.
Then we bring in the other problems, like Ret being able to solo Afflicted and Incorp, DKs, DKs offering no bonus utility, like Stampeding Roar, Freedom, Wind Rush, Berserker/Intimidating Shout, etc.
TL;DR: You don’t feel useless playing a DPS DK because you’re playing with subpar players and/or playing on a casual level. DPS DKs bring nothing of actual value other other MDPS, let alone RDPS.
Ret doesn’t have an AoE stun. Warrior has to talent into it and it’s bad pathing. Rogue doesn’t have an aoe stun. Survival doesn’t have an aoe stun unless you count binding shot.
wake of ashes in fyrakk adds :smilege: value…
And yet they still easily talent into it. Guess the pathing isn’t really bad then.
I originally had “AoE stop or stun” written but changed it for some reason, which is my fault.
But Rogue has with the upgraded Blind talent and Ret with their yellow blinding sleet and are fundamentally similar to an AoE stun as they stop enemies from attacking and interrupt casting.
It’s also weird you chose to call that out and not mention that DKs don’t have an AoE stun.
There’s no “unless you count that” it’s literally a stun. With how often people come to here complain about tanks moving out of DND, it’s objectively a stun on that basis. And on the basis that it’s a stun.
And writing this out reminds me that grip is even worse utility, since Druids and Hunters have an easily pathable knockback with Typhoon and Explosive Trap, so the whole “you get to grip two mobs out of Sanguine every 70s” is pretty mediocre in comparison to those, too.
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Then we have the same thing as Ret, they get an aoe disorient with blinding light. Rogues do too. We have blinding sleet? At second row, warriors have it second to last row. Paladins it’s not in a normal path too same as warrior.
Now I’m sure you’ll say that ours is a conal where rets and rogues have it AoE… but same argument for warriors, theirs is conal too.
Such a load of bias. 2 grips, blind, amz, ranged short cd interrupt, slappy hands, battle rez.
“no utility”
I’m not saying that they couldn’t use some love but this mentality everyone has that they have nothing is just so ridiculous. Press your buttons.
Dude… jeeez… its not that bad. I get if you don’t like the playstyle, or you think it needs rework all of these things might be true. But this is just actually not true. Are they bis in M+ - no. But they are not bad at all. They bring quite a bit and any casual player should have more than enough tools to finish 20’s.
Blind is perfectly obtainable for dk as well
We have an aoe blind, aoe grip, and you can talent aoe stun as frost if you would so choose to spend the points that way. You can choose asphyiate if you would please.
I’m not saying dk couldnt use something but you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO exaggerating this subject its absolutely nuts and bias
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All those things you listed and I still don’t know a single person that would choose a dps dk over literally any other class in keys, especially high keys, myself included.
Yes and you’re here to give the totally unbiased opinion, as is tradition.
The poster you’re siding with very clearly said:
Which is very clearly false.
https:// raider .io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-3/all/world/leaderboards#role=melee-dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=2:maxMythicLevel=99
The at every M+ level, Fury Warrior sees more play than both DPS DKs combined. The total spread of DKs vs Warriors completing keys is about 30k~, a little under 15%. Even if we crunched Arms & Fury’s numbers down by 15%, there’s still many, many more players playing those than Frost & Unholy.
If DPS Warriors felt as useless as the poster said, then DKs would be brought more then them, even accounting for the 15% difference. But they’re not, because DKs do not bring anything of actual value that DPS Warriors can’t outside of grip, which is only good under very specific constraints.
So, to make it clear:
- In the context of “DPS DKs have problems in M+ but not so much that they’re useless” - I agree.
- In the context of “DPS DKs are more useful than Warriors in M+ and you’ll feel more useful playing a DK over a Warrior” - I disagree, and the data backs that up.
What this breaks down to is:
When utility is lacking, you bring the one with the bigger stick.
Which is what the data represents with Warriors
I’m just saying that this is not the way you were portraying it before lol. Literally were stating “no utility” and “bring nothing of actual value”. I’m not siding with anyone just simply stating that this is untrue.
And the whole warrior thing; fury warrior is VASTLY more popular than either dk spec. Representation is going to be skewed just from players base actually playing that class alone.
Most of the dk player base role plays and does quests, and wants to be arthas. The average dk doesn’t enter a mythic plus. 100% smaller group of people.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35#difficulty=3
Fury warrior has 233,964 logs vs frost dk at 56,204 logs.
Arms is at 85,530 and unholy at 120,440.
Active dps players (from logs from normal raids)
DK: 176,644
War: 319,494
Do you think that normal raid logs vary this much from class utility or numbers?.. or from just actual player base.
TLDR: Most dk’s dont do raid or dungeon content.
This is just false. You’d have to know exactly how many Warriors there are and attribute that percentage to raiding, and same with DKs.
More Warriors means they’ll have higher participation numbers in any given content
Same thing with DKs.
Only thing you’re showing is there’s more people playing Warriors than DKs
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The above explains this:
Warriors seeing more play doesn’t mean warrior is necessarily better. There are more warriors overall.