____ did nothing wrong

Lore Story Forum
61

Garrosh is interesting since his worldview directly follows from his life experience, ie the leader of a small community inevitably losing a war of slow attrition to the enemies who surround them. There is no negotiation, they won’t stop until you’re all dead, so the only rational response is to kill them all first.

Whereas Thrall, who grew up among humans, learned that, while he may dislike them as a whole, there are humans with whom negotiation and even cooperation to mutual benefit is possible (ie Jaina).

They were good foils for each other. For example, to Thrall the skirmishes in Ashenvale were nothing to start a war over: for Garrosh, this (basically ignoring a hostile entity) was insanity and he didn’t really grasp the value in it. It makes sense why Garrosh would go off the rails when his check was gone.

One of the less invoked crimes of WoD was retconning Garrosh’s arc in Cataclysm/Pandaland from one that naturally extended from his life experience to one driven by daddy issues- despite that arc being introduced and resolved in TBC. I’d love to read a behind-the-scenes tell all about the story development of WoW at that time period, it seems clear to me they didn’t go into Cata thinking Garrosh to be the villain of the next expac (the obvious buildup for that role went to Sylvanas).

62

Kael’thas sins will be laid out in Revendreth, which will probably go into far more depth of why Kael’thas is redeemable than I could go into here, though the short answer is until he finally snapped and went insane after being left for dead in Tempest Keep, Kael’thas had done everything he did for his people. Sylvanas only ever did anything for herself.

I believe Sylvanas deserved to go to the Maw even before Wrath of the Lich King, ever since at least this part from the Arthas novel:

    The human girl was on her knees. Keever stooped down, yanked her head up by her hair, and when she opened her mouth to cry out in pain, he poured a cup of something down her throat and covered her mouth, forcing her to swallow.

    Sylvanas watched while she struggled. Beside her, the Forsaken male accepted the cup that Faranell offered without protest, draining it dry.

    It happened quickly. The human girl soon stopped struggling, her body tensing, and then going into paroxysms. Keever let her go, watching almost curiously as blood began to stream from her mouth, nose, eyes, and ears. Sylvanas turned her gaze to the Forsaken. He still regarded her steadily, silently. She began to frown.

    “Perhaps this is not as effective as your—”

    The Forsaken shuddered. He struggled to stand erect for a moment longer, but his rapidly weakening body betrayed him and he stumbled, falling hard. Everyone stepped back. Sylvanas watched raptly, her lips parted in excitement.

    “The same strain?” she asked Faranell. The human female whimpered once and then was still, her eyes open. The alchemist nodded happily.

    “Indeed it is,” he said. “As you can imagine, we are quite—”

    The undead spasmed, his skin breaking open in spots and weeping black ichor, and then he, too, was still.

    “—pleased with the results.”

    “Indeed,” Sylvanas said. She was hard put to conceal her own elation; “pleased” was a pale word indeed.

3 Likes
63

The peace treaty was broken during Warlords of Draenor any way. The Horde player even executes an Orc for having aided the Alliance during said expansion.

Don’t get me wrong, when the Skyfire was destroyed I was yelling expletives at Genn on my screen. But even Lor’themar and Ji warned Vol’jin what was coming from the Alliance before Vol’jin succumbed to Mueh’zala’s whispers and appointed Sylvanas Warchief.

1 Like
64

I did and it’s a still a very poor justification for locking her up and making her his slave. Jack was always a monster, he just hid it better.

65

Hi! i am going to reply this in behalf of gharion, The dk.

Gharion from the story discord says: now you know how Alliance players feel about Sylvanas :P.

2 Likes
66

I would disagree that Cata Garrosh was an Orc Supremacist. He was a Horde Supremacist and he felt that only Orcs embodied what it meant to be Horde. If Trolls ended up being the Horde race that was more prone to war, honor, etc. and the Orcs had sulked to the backlines, I think the True Horde would have been entirely Trolls.

MoP Garrosh, however, just believed that non-Demonic Orcs were superior to all other Azerothian races. This is why the True Horde was nothing but the Orcs from Outlands and the Dragonmaws from Twilight Highlands. But that was just character assassination on Blizzard’s part.

This is just wrong. He welcomed the Goblins in and carved them out an entire wing in Orgrimmar just for them. The Vulpera under the “Council” get a little cliff by the side of the road. And those same Goblins now have to share their wing with the other Allied races. Pre-BfA Gilneas got to chill in Darnassus and had an entire sect of the city to themselves and didn’t have to give up a single inch of it to incoming Alliance allied races.

Cata Garrosh treated every member of the Horde with respect as long as they were honorable and kept that honor.

67

I object to the whole notion of:

________ did nothing wrong!

On the simple grounds of:

They failed. They did something wrong.

From the genesis of the phrase, to most of the people gleefully and jokingly referenced. They did something wrong. They lost and ended up worm food in ways they sought to avoid.

Garithos, Garrosh, Uncle Adolf, Daelin - they did something wrong because they lost and saw their efforts were for naught before they met their end.

I know it is the humor of the age… but it seems factually lacking. Humor usually has some truth. To say these clowns did “nothing wrong” is missing a truth that usually sparks humor.

They did something wrong to fail so utterly.

1 Like
68

so in essence, to do something wrong, someone has to decide that it was wrong, and usually when that happens is because you are letting them judge you.
(IE.you lost)

So, if you actually do something and actually get away with it, and live unpunished,you did nothing wrong because you didn’t break the most importat rule:
Don’t get caugh.

2 Likes
69

Are you that devoid of comprehension?

You are conflating “doing something wrong” with “doing nothing wrong”.

Devoid of comprehension it is.

The OP was discussing the statement:

_____ did nothing wrong.

Which quite literally means they did nothing wrong.

That is different than “something wrong”. It is exactly the opposite.

I can not pretend to guess what you meant… like a cough? Well, do not get cough, yourself.

If you are ill, and it made you lose the ability to read and understand words… I hope you feel better.

70

Someone else pointed out that (quite ironically) Arthas’ actions were proven to be correct, later on…by himself. Everything Arthas was afraid of happening at Stratholme? Happened in Lordaeron. An infection started in the middle of the castle (by him), and spread uncontrolled in that area. Without harsh limits, the Scourge population exploded. People weren’t able to mount any real kind of defense, because it was too late. As people fell, more Scourge were raised. And it became a full out plague.

Mind you, as I’ve said, Arthas’ main problems could be summarized with the two words “Dude. Chill.” But at least with Stratholme, that’s one of those “that’s absolutely horrible, but let’s not pretend this was a simple solution, and let’s not exonerate Mal’ganis, the demon that literally set it up”.

Well…I mean…

…to be fair?

The realization “orcs aren’t to be trusted, and this will come back to bite us” isn’t really that big a leap, y’know? Given literally the experiences of all of the planet with the orcs?

The big leap was them not killing everything in sight.

Slightly off-topic, but Daelin and Arthas, I’d argue, are more of the kinds of figures needed on the Alliance side, because that is how you start having the Alliance actually responsible for some conflicts and appearing “morally grey”. Not random things like vulpera purge squads, and other things that make people go “…what?”

Villains have much more of an impact, I think, if part of you at least understands their motivations. That gives things some nuance. Not something where your first thought is “Oh, they’re probably being mind controlled”. Something where your first thought is to kinda inhale and look around, not entirely sure how to respond.

71

You say the dude needed to chill. Perhaps that is why he sought… The Frozen Throne.

3 Likes
72

…

…I will end you.

1 Like
73

So, let’s talk logical fallacies.

Using your own subsequent action to justify a prediction you yourself made? That’s the definition of circular argument.

Daelin Proudmoore: The orcs claim they want to leave the war behind, but I know that the war with them can only end with one side or the other dead. So I am going to go after them and attack them, thus proving that the war cannot be left behind.

Or more simply: “I predict that there will be a fight between us!”[proceeds to punch other person in the nose. Fight ensues.] Afterwards: “I am psychic!”

The point is, you can’t “prove” something by circular reasoning. It’s the first thing you learn in Logic 110.

8 Likes
74

And let’s talk about Stratholme, and whether or not Arthas had a choice. Because as we’ve all learned: quarantines are a real thing, and they work. There’s a reason only a tiny fraction of the world’s population has caught covid-19 thus far, and we’ve been largely successful in preventing healthcare systems from being overwhelmed.

Would it have worked in that case? Probably! The infection was being initially spread intentionally, and subsequently through active transmission by infectious agents(e.g. zombie attacks). In general, the infection was extremely fast-acting and lethal. In some ways, that is advantageous - it makes it relatively easy to spot and contain (c.f. ebola). On the other hand, the fact that it was being spread maliciously and created zombies that actively wanted to spread it would have been quite a challenge.

But it doesn’t seem that Arthas really took much time to think through options. As an extremely black and white thinker, he settled very quickly on only two courses of action: do nothing, or kill everyone. And as an extremely proactive and egotistical kind of guy, he obviously opted for the latter. He saw a problem, made some simple deductions without spending too much time on nuance, came up with a plan, completely trusted that his plan and only his plan could be correct, and executed the plan. Along with an entire city.

His tragic flaw is hubris. Classic, really.

6 Likes
75

I agree with that.

I don’t agree that’s what’s happening here.

Arthas’ fear during Stratholme was a situation where the plague would spread, and havoc and bad stuff and such would happen.

Which is exactly what happened in Lordaeron. The difference being that Arthas didn’t bring the plague to Stratholme, but he did bring it to Lordaeron.

Stratholme was already infected. He came in during the infection. He didn’t cause it. Someone else who’s actually good at looking up these quotes and such (it is absolutely not me, as this is not my area of being good at things) can probably find that bit where people mentioned that while Arthas was right, the issue was that he was so quick to jump to the “kill them all” route.

And if memory serves, he didn’t just jump to that conclusion willy-nilly. Hadn’t he already literally seen what the plague would do? That wasn’t him using his actions to justify his decision, that was using what he had seen as a basis for his decision.

This was him doing the same thing, without the control of culling the infected. This was “Okay, watch what happens when we infect a population and just let it run free. Oh, look, Plaguelands.”

I want to clarify, though, that again, Arthas really needed to chill. There’s no reason he couldn’t have just locked it down while people figured out what to do…even though that probably would have led to the same outcome. But, yeah, to be fair, he was being goaded and baited by an actual demon.

And with Daelin, what possible reason did he have to believe the orcs could be taken at their word? Every single time he had seen orcs, they were trying to kill and murder everything.

76

Yeah: Dude. Chill. (Arthas, I mean, not you.)

I don’t know if it’s just hubris, though. I think his zeal was probably a bigger issue. It’s like he has no…there’s no…I remember a comedian said something like “You think I go zero to 100? Honey, I’m idling at 75.”

He’s not big on Plan B. I’m just saying that this is actually a difficult situation. It’s not just lethal, it’s somehow more dangerous after people have died from it. It becomes more infectious the more people died, and there’s no cure. It’s an impossible situation.

77

Except this time, when they had announced that they would literally move to another continent to leave the conflict behind. I mean, what more could they have done? They wanted to survive (understandable) and they didn’t want to keep trying to kill all the humans (laudable), so they left. They had to fight for and steal boats to do so (bad), but given their end goal, it seems like at the time Thrall’s orcs were doing all they could to just get away (good), and no one was going to give them ships.

Daelin made an assumption, but his assumption was in fact wrong. And he actually had evidence that his assumption was wrong, provided by his own daughter, but didn’t want to hear it. So that’s what possible reason he had. He just chose to ignore it, and perpetuated the cycle of violence.

7 Likes
78

Check out the bit in Chronicle where it describes Arthas vision of the scourge as a “world without war or hunger or poverty”. Blizz tryin’ to say any one who wants liberty equality and fraternity is a psycho :roll_eyes:

79

I think for a lot of people, myself included, the _____ Did nothing wrong meme is less of a statement of truth and more something like these people are fun to defend.

Daelin, Arthas and Garrosh are really fun to try and defend. Do I believe they are innocent. No, I do not believe that. It’s just the kind of discussion I like. Keeps me sharp, helps me look at things from a new perspective.

80

Well, he had quite a few forces at his disposal, had he not immediately alienated Uther and Jaina. He could have pacified the city, killed the zombies, isolated everyone else, done his best to separate the infected from the uninfected, and taken direct control of monitoring the ongoing situation. I think he basically panicked and went with the only option he really understood: violence.

Where was the social distancing, dude?

I live in British Columbia, Canada. We were one of the first regions of North America to be infected with this virus, but have been fortunate enough to see a very low infection rate. A lot of this is because leadership was immediately handed over to our provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry, who has been an absolute hero in this crisis. Every day, we get a complete and thoughtful update with ongoing directives. And she ends every update by reminding us to “be calm, be safe, and be kind.”

Arthas needed a Dr. Bonnie!

6 Likes