Her being a threat isn’t the issue. A lot of people are working to stop her from being a threat. But insisting on being the one who kills her, running off to get her kill rather than cooperating with others to bring her down, that is vengeance, not stopping a threat. Perhaps if she had been focused on the threat, rather than killing Sylvanas, the Sigil could have been protected?
Vengeance vs. Justice is common theme, you see this in villain arcs where the villain decided that he can do anything, as long as he gets his “justice”. You even see this in Shadowlands in Uther’s arc, where calls what he did to Arthas “Justice” until the ends when he realized it was “vengeance”. This isn’t clear, which is why it is a meme, there is a sense that Justice is about objective balance, not personal hate.
And here was see the issue of “all consuming” vengeance and ignorance of the cost. Will Tyrande giving her life change the past? Which is more important, helping her people rebuild or getting her vengeance?
So you are arguing from an IRL perspective here huh? You should have been clear about that from the beginning.
I was arguing from a Lore perspective, I was incorporating a moral outlook, along with a few IRL examples. But okay lets go IRL here.
The only thing you have invested in, is that you paid money to create a pixelized action figure/toy that you can customize with various colors, clothing, weapons, vehicles, pets, abilities, and body types. Then remote pilot said avatar through various obstacle courses, along an established story, and plotline, against other players, or the established foes, in a group, or by yourself. That is it. That is what this game is.
You and that “WE” you think you wholly represent, didn’t build anything of that city, yeah maybe you had adventures, (E)RP scenarios, maybe some Soap Opera (E)RP storyline going, in some little hidey-hole somewhere on that tree. But everything about that city, was not your creation, nor yours to do with as you please. Same with Undercity, and the surrounding area.
It is Blizzard’s. These events of their determined story and plot, at best are a new opportunity for change, for the players to explore, at worst it is an unpleasant reality check that this game is not under your control, and you aren’t nearly as important in it, as you think you are.
Especially when the day comes that Blizzard decides that World of Warcraft is over, and can no longer be played. What is all that “investment” and hard work you put into it, going to amount to then?
You haven’t lost anything, you still have your toons, all the items, and rewards that you have earned, your account, the option to make more Night Elves, and even your right to gripe here on the forums. You can even go to a Bronze Dragon in game and return to the city in the past.
As someone who has actually lost everything I owned, earned, and a place where I lived, and made memories, due to horrible circumstances, and had to rebuild it all from the ground up, IN REAL LIFE, this rant of yours, about yours, and whoever else you think you represent PLAYER EXPERIENCE, really does not compare in the slightest. All this is, is whining about how the game seems so unfair to you. Welcome to the real world, Sylvanas said it best, “Nothing is fair.”
If these truths about this game burn you so much, that you can’t handle it, then I recommend maybe you should to take a break, stop playing, and see a Therapist.
Why stay on the uninhabitable island? If it was still livable and there was still something to stay for and protect, sure, but if it is useless why stay?
I wasn’t implying anything about Illidan or the Illidari, but since you insist on it, okay.
Reality check. All leaders do that, soldiers of any cause exist exactly to fight and die, or be sacrificed, for their cause as per the agendas of their leaders. It only changes when the soldier rises to the rank of leader themself, at which point they become the same thing as their former leader. Cruel but true, even Tyrande is not exempt from that.
Lol! Way to late for that pal. Lets see, cringey edgelordness, warglaives, black eyes, dark shadows…at this rate she is becoming more Illidan than Illidan. Switch the black eyes and the green hair and…there you go, female Illidan.
Hmm lets consider this, the impression I get is that the Night Warrior power is meant for, well…a suicide run to put it bluntly. So in laymans terms, she is wearing a vest loaded with high yeild, possibly nuclear level explosives, pumped up on steroids, and is generally roid-raging 23/7. I say 23 because she needs at least an hour a day to vent on something. So not so much wrong, as more like a really bad idea.
I’m sure that is an impressive list you have compiled there, but I will pass thank you, even though there is probably no actual guarantee that any of those things you did mention would actually happen.
Noooo. Tyrande is NOT a Mercenary, she is the Official Co-leader/ruler of her nation and species, and a prominent religious icon for the last 10,000+ years. She was not part of the army, she just charged in, in what appears to be something similar to a pent up roid-raging Leroy Jenkins. Now we have been saddled with keeping her crazy a$$ alive before her own power kills her, or she gets herself killed.
You are obviosly missing perhaps one of the biggest points in this whole game. We as mercenary, murderhobos, are paid to kill damn near everything in our path. So an occasional main character can deliver the killshot, sometimes.
Uh, no, that was Malfurion’s plan. You know the Arch Druid who was sleeping for the majority of the last 10,000 years, who only after a few days of being up, decided to overrule everyone else’s objections to said plan including Tyrande, the actual ruler of the Night Elves. Which I find rather odd, as he wasn’t the Co-ruler at that time. Then roughly a decade later, on another planet, we learn that an army of 25 or so mercenaries, could have actually stomped him, and did, even on his own turf in the Twisting Nether, rendering that original plan completely unnessecary to begin with.
No, Archimonde exploded, and the tree got destroyed/exploded, along with him, and he was in the process of draining it. He even admitted to it, and a cinematic shows him doing it, just before the wisps made him go boom.
Well, the impression I get, is that the Night Warrior power is meant for, well…a suicide run to put it bluntly. If this is the last of the last resorts, then yeah I can see that being the case. Has Tyrande used it for such though? Is it really supposed to be used for just revenge?
How has that been going so far?
Who says she is going to be the one who kills Sylvanas?
Would that have actually worked? Remember it only took 2 Mawsworn to initially capture him, and the 1st escape attempt failed. What if she has a different plan for getting him out?
Saurfang sought redemption, but I don’t think it included being crucified by vengeful Draenei, or becoming Lightbound. Rather more like preventing the next generation from repeating the horrors of the past. Illidan suffered from serious mental illness, seems more like he would need proper help, and therapy rather than redemption. Then again, Illidan’s plan to stop the Legion and save the universe, actually worked, so does he really need redemption?
Redemption can come in many different ways, and is interpreted in different ways too. There is no universal standard for it. So does redemption for a woman shooting her father, involve returning to said parent, and let him continue his mental, physical, and sexual abuse of her, and her children? Do all future generations of Germans have to find redemption with all future generations of Israelis for what happened in WW2?
Oops … No need to use analogies. By the island I meant the world, Azeroth.
In any case, even Azeroth, even the entire universe … what’s the difference?
In Azeroth, the Horde “changed” for the third time awaits, and the previous two “changes” were accompanied by attacks on the night elves. What changed when half of the Horde did not feel “bad” until the very end, and the other half was horrified by necromancy, not “dishonorable” victory?
The Universe, if not to intervene, is going to drown in the energies of Death in the near future, so it’s too early to engage in moving to other worlds. Not that the night elves had portals or spaceships, but still.
So there is only one option left - to destroy the threat of a universal scale (Zovaal), then to destroy local threats (Horde, Alliance, small races of monsters), and then the Night Warrior will be killed by one of her own, or a heart attack of an overabundance of strength will occur.
And I would agree if we would be looking at a different narrative team. But even though the timing for that story to work is gone, I would not be surprised if the devs will try to put a heroic spin on her story.
The thing is, there is no narrative consistency with this story line IMO. For example, A Good War:
Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us.
And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow. And she wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective.
Sylvanas’s anger grew cold.
She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all.
On the other hand in the game right after the Warbringers cinematic Sylvanas said.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: When I sent you on this mission, I did not foresee this outcome. Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Our attack was meant to end a war before it began…
So it is both her plan and not plan, and that’s what she did smiling, and something that made her say “I did not foresee”. She knows about Elune, but not really, and was ready for action, but kind of not really.
I guess it is in line with the current narration. It’s more relevant to keep people guessing than actually create a fulfilling story.
Tryande, in the cinematic, was willing to give her life for Slyvanas.’ She was not asking Elune for power to not only kill Slyvanas, but also all the Forsaken and Horde children combined.
She wanted to end Slyvanas, in no other way than anyone would want to end an Old God.
When the Humans took part in slaying Deathwing, was it Vengeance? I mean he burned down Stormwind…
When Thiernax slayed the Old God that threaten his world, were other’s not fighting against those void forces?
Why did Thiernax sacrifice himself to kill the Old God? Why not just wait for “tHeMerCeNarIeS?”
When it comes to Tyrande, and this narrative, everything she does is in the “name of revenge, or vengeance” but yet countless others have done the same thing in the history of World of Warcraft and have been praised as heroes.
That’s why I referenced the Valley of Heroes, what did these individuals do to warrant a statue? They jumped on the live grenade that was the Dark Portal, while others assumed it came at the sacrifice of their own lives.
Heroes, who sacrificed their lives in order to do what needed to be done.
Could the Dark Portal not been closed in a different way? Just wait for 25 heroes to come…
All I’m saying is, Tyrande willing to “jump on the live grenade that is Slyvanas,” should be considered an act of heroism. As so many heroes before her, have Done. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
That line’s worded a bit weirdly but she’s saying Tyrande didn’t do it for that reason. I think the rest of the post’s context is clear enough that what she’s actually doing is just the same kind of heroic act that the game constantly shows us as being good, even though the game’s apparently trying to say “no don’t” this time for some reason.
But I don’t see that the common good is what her sacrifice was for. I pointed out in my previous post that what she did was a good way to try and a chance to personally kill Sylvanas, but not such a good way to try and stop the thread to the world.
But you deleted it, and I am not going to waste my time repeating points . If you want to address it, you can. If you just want deflect from it. Well, good luck with that.
And again, I have to repeat myself. Tyrande isn’t using the Power of Elune to slaughter all the Forsaken and Horde until every last one of them pays for what the Banshee Queen did.
That would be vengeance.
Currently, at the [time] of this cinematic, Slyvanas is still a threat to the world, she still has to be defeated somehow. Tyrande willing to sacrifice herself to stop Slyvanas, and only Slyvanas, “should” be seen as an act of heroism more so than a vengeance.
Again, and again, what if this were an Old God?
N’zoth attacked Stormwind and burned it to the ground, the alliance forces rallied their troops to march upon Ny’alotha.
During the battle of N’zoth, Anduin “sacrifices” himself, with the power of the Light, to vanquish N’zoth once and for all!!
WOW Anduin is a hero!!! What a champion of the Light…
This same scenario could be played out for Slyvanas and Tyrande, yet Tyrande is mocked up to vengeance…
When he’s awake Malfurion is the actual ruler of the Night Elves. It was he who mandated Illidan’s imprisonment, his later banishment, and he who sentenced the Highborne to exile. The game makes it Tyrande for PVP award acheivements when that was still relevant but lore generally puts Mal in charge when he’s on stage.
He was also the one in charge during the War of Thorns until he was nearly killed by Saurfang.
I think it is sort of personal between some devs and Tyrande as a character for somereason I am not aware of. I saw once an interview related to the War Crimes book: https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/blizzplanet-interview-world-of-warcraft-war-crimes-by-christie-golden
I think Tyrande as evidenced by what she did in that particular scene that you referenced, she wants Garrosh dead and she has been charged with doing, just as Baine has been, doing the very best she can to make sure that this orc receives what she and many others perceive as the only … the ONLY real justice.
Everything else to her would just be ridiculous; and so I do not think she would stoop to anything illegal or immoral; but if it is there, she is going to use it; and she is also prepared to see that from Baine.
So I won’t say she will stop at nothing; but I think she will use every tool in her kit to make sure that she gets the verdict that she wants.
So, you can get the general idea of how the current story influencers see the characters and the theme.
In general they seem to be nepotism at full force. Only when it comes to their favourite characters suffering matter. Only for selected few there is justice. Only selected few are to define how other must think about behave, and so on.
Which is especially peculiar in the case of Golden that I mentioned at some point, specifically how she promoted the article with a certain idea, only to ignore another part of it at the same time.
Another peculiar bit about the trial.
Ian BatesThis one is … I’m going to make it as spoiler-free as possible … The August Celestial’s verdict (without giving it away) is quite odd, considering what Garrosh has done and we know he is going to do in “Warlords of Draenor”. Do you think they will regret their decision? – the Celestials, once we find out about the Iron Horde. Or can they see into the future? … like some people have theorized. Or do they want him to go to Draenor?
We can’t really comprehend how they think, and I won’t go so far as to say they see the future; because I honestly don’t know one way or the other; but I do think that they are wiser than we are and they are unburdened by things that we are. So they are actually as impartial as impartial can be.
Which is ridiculous is several occasions:
there are character that can be as old as the celestials if not older. People’s way of thinking and dealing with the situations might differ from 20 years to 30, to 50. Here we’re talking about 10k+ which is hard to comprehend how much that is and how such beings can see the reality.
in comparison to creatures related to OGs or naaru the capability of celestials to comprehend the reality is comically small.
Yet the characters who are only useful as a source of burrowed power here are presented as paragons of virtue.
(but actually it’s just an excuse to get the desired outcome and not explain or be resposible for the consequences).
This is simply untrue. Malfurion takes part in the political affairs of the night elves when needed, but Tyrande is the de jure leader.
Tyrande organized a new army called the Sentinels. This army is still directed by the Sisters of Elune, and thus Tyrande has been sole head of the night elf government throughout the ensuing millennia. - The Warcraft Encyclopedia, Night Elves
She said we free Illidan, malfurion tried to speak to her and she answered with “ONLY ELUNE CAN FORBIDE ME ANYTHING”
the second time she was going to save Shandris (Malfurion wanted her not to)
the third time, she threatened Thrall in shadow rising, although he tried to hold her back, but she glanced at him and he went back because of it.
Malfurion never overruled Tyrande…but she overruled him a few times in lore. Also, Malfurion had to convince Tyrande to sacrifice Nordrassil…she was actually against it, but he convinced her.
Well, arguably those aren’t really examples of “rulings” so much as her rebuffing his opinion in the moment. It’s Tyrande going to personally do things herself, Malfurion not wanting her to, and her saying she’s doing it anyway. None of them are her telling him he’s going to do something he doesn’t want to because she’s in charge, or vice-versa.
When it comes to how their society runs itself, there’s never really been any overt conflict portrayed between them. Even with Illidan’s release, though she insisted that it needed to be done at the time and under the circumstances, she’s never shown that she seriously disagreed with Malfurion’s reasons for having him imprisoned. Though circumstances never allowed for it, if Illidan proved insufficiently reformed once the Legion was beaten, she may have been fine with them chucking him right back into jail.
Nordrassil is also a tricky thing because it wasn’t just the source of their immortality. It’s a World Tree with ties to the Emerald Dream, a bond that had been entrusted to the druids as part of their pact with the Aspects (especially Ysera), so the handling of Nordrassil was rather specifically the Archdruid’s responsibility and decision to make by virtue of that arrangement. He convinced her, but it was never implied that such convincing was necessary for him to be “allowed” to do it.
Such disagreements aren’t necessarily qualified as one exerting his or her power as ruler of their people over the other as “second-in-command.” They co-rule, but each has responsibilities specific to their respective roles as Archdruid and High Priestess with which the other doesn’t try to interfere.
“Only the Goddess may forbid” Tyrande in her capacity as High Priestess and leader of the Sentinel Army, but then the same goes for Malfurion. As top-ranking, most powerful Archdruid and leader of the Cenarion Circle there’s been no indication that he’s obligated to submit to her judgment in matters relating to duidism and the preservation of Nature.
Insofar as how they share regular day-to-day governance, it’s hard to say because non-human races don’t tend to get much attention in that area. They’re prone to be disproportionately represented by the interests of their military and Class organizations (i.e. where they fit in the Alliance or Horde “tech trees.”)
Just gonna say we are still missing the message Elune gives through Tyrande right before The Tear relic is left, as that’s still encrypted. I think a lot of our questions are likely to be solved with this particular plot point with what is communicated.
