*DETAILED CONCEPT* Ranged Survival / Ranger / Wilderness / Forester

[Lilithchylde-zuljin]

I wish they would return to a ranged version of Survival. Played it from vanilla through its current iterations of a melee hunter, and despised the change to one of the most enjoyable specs of the hunter.

[Bepples-barthilas]

spec, i talk from a pvp perspective. i am not a another grass on the ground, pve is simply a means to a end. ranged Survival, as far as i have known and played it, was called the pve spec back in the day.

And when I talk about spec representation I talk about actual data and not my vague recollections of what some people thought several expansions ago. The spec representation data is still available on worldofwargraphs going back to MoP. Last time SV was ranged it had roughly double the rated PvP representation it currently has, so you’re still wrong.

The caveat, of course, is it was the weaker spec in MoP. This is largely due to the fact that Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow could all be dispelled. Once we got a Black Arrow dispel protection and Serpent Sting being automatically applied by Arcane Shot the spec rocketed up to the top in PvP. So it’s a bit ridiculous to declare that the spec was underplayed and somehow not feasible due to an issue which held it back in a specific area of content in a specific era of the game and was already fixed by the time it was officially killed off.

nope. i actually mained Shadow priest up to a certain point. I understand the blight of ranged. if anything you playing a hunter makes You entitled because of how different range hunter is to other range specs. Strawman.

Who said I don’t main hunter?

You don’t even care enough to post from your Hunter, for one. Who knows what you are trying to get at with this “entitled” comment.

As i said, its not going anywhere. Until factual evidence is provided that that is no longer the case. The point stands. Now even cemented.

What exactly is this “put my foot down” approach meant to achieve here? This is hardly even relevant to the part to which you’re responding. Declaring that melee Survival is safe forever is not a safe bet. For one, ranged Survival was far more successful and long-lived yet it wasn’t safe. Secondly, the first iteration of melee Survival is dead and buried after just two years, with a remade version being much more focused on ranged combat. Thirdly, the BFA remake of Survival was primarily driven by a desire to pull Survival back in line with the other two specs identity-wise (see January 2018 Q&A) and Hazzikostas did a developer insight video before 8.2 further expressing their concerns that specs are becoming too divergent. People literally made threads begging for Survival to be protected when they heard that because everyone knows Survival is still the single-worst example of it, despite the BFA changes.

Let me make it clear: I think it’s exceedingly unlikely it will ever go back to being ranged. However, that chance drops to ZERO if we all just shut up and start praising Survival and that’s evidently what your goal is in these threads.

Uhhh I came in here and asked a question.

As everyone can obliviously see, you’re still bitter about the other thread and have chosen to stalk me around on the forums. Typical.

Lol “stalking”. I post in Survival threads. There was a Survival thread so I posted in it. You asked a question and I answered it.

I don’t know what world you live in, but on earth i don’t know of any human with enough self-respect to allow someone to take something that they like and to do so rudely. Yes, that is questionable and I WILL continue to state such.

Its painfully obvious of how bitter you are. You really need to do better. To the point that me asking a plain and simple question to the Op triggers you this much you shouldn’t even be on the forums.

Damn right, I’m bitter. I’m not going to moderate how I post beyond making sure what I post isn’t straight-up bannable (you demonstrated in the other thread that you’re perfectly willing and prepared to report everyone who disagrees with you). I simply do not believe in the “kind and compromising” approach any more. People used to be like that – including me – and we just got walked all over. Enough is enough. Our class has compromised enough away and we need to express that tearing apart and factionalising the Hunter class is not welcome.

Your cool asf. there are exception to errthang sweetie. I commend you for how you go about the topic and insist that Beeples follows your example if he hopes to ever have range survival see the light of day again.

Why would anyone be interested in your “advice”? You have flat-out said that you do not want ranged SV to return and you want SV to remain melee. So why would we listen to you when you start declaring what will and will not be favourable to our side? This is why tone-policing doesn’t work.

P.S. I don’t consider 4th spec to be a remotely likely or feasible solution at all, so whenever you start encouraging us to ask for that I see it as yet another attempt to lead the ranged Survival discussion into a dead end.

[Velyzra-tichondrius]

And when I talk about spec representation I talk about actual data and not my vague recollections of what some people thought several expansions ago. The spec representation data is still available on worldofwargraphs going back to MoP. Last time SV was ranged it had roughly double the rated PvP representation it currently has, so you’re still wrong .

I never said what i was saying was fact. I always say what I was saying was told to me and as i knew it. People back then factually people always told me never to play survival or Arcane in pvp and that’s a fact.

So yes, you’re still wrong.

You don’t even care enough to post from your Hunter, for one. Who knows what you are trying to get at with this “entitled” comment.

O i would post on my hunter. I typically am posting from my phone and the swap characters thing is bugged for me currently. You’ll have to deal with my dk (just like you have to deal with melee survival) until further notice.

What exactly is this “put my foot down” approach meant to achieve here? This is hardly even relevant to the part to which you’re responding. Declaring that melee Survival is safe forever is not a safe bet. For one, ranged Survival was far more successful and long-lived yet it wasn’t safe. Secondly, the first iteration of melee Survival is dead and buried after just two years, with a remade version being much more focused on ranged combat. Thirdly, the BFA remake of Survival was primarily driven by a desire to pull Survival back in line with the other two specs identity-wise (see January 2018 Q&A) and Hazzikostas did a developer insight video before 8.2 further expressing their concerns that specs are becoming too divergent. People literally made threads begging for Survival to be protected when they heard that because everyone knows Survival is still the single-worst example of it, despite the BFA changes.

So asking for evidence is bad now?

obviously the data behind ranged survival wasn’t as good as you thought cause where is it? The trash. And with how you go about the topic it become more and more likely to stay there. I’ve already stated that I didn’t mind range survival, i love somethings in both, its just people like you who are rude who push others to the other side of the fence then complain about it.

I agree that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, that wheel stops at the wheel being rude and needlessly aggressive though.

Lol “stalking”. I post in Survival threads. There was a Survival thread so I posted in it. You asked a question and I answered it.

As i said stalking.

My question was purely directed at OP and you came in here from the other thread to harass me on what you thought i was trying to ask.

Damn right, I’m bitter. I’m not going to moderate how I post beyond making sure what I post isn’t straight-up bannable (you demonstrated in the other thread that you’re perfectly willing and prepared to report everyone who disagrees with you). I simply do not believe in the “kind and compromising” approach any more. People used to be like that – including me – and we just got walked all over. Enough is enough. Our class has compromised enough away and we need to express that tearing apart and factionalising the Hunter class is not welcome.

I’m happy you’ve accepted it. Acceptance is one of the steps to recovery.

You don’t even have to be “kind”, just don’t be rude. you can float in-between surely. As i have.

Why would anyone be interested in your “advice”?

Cause i’m a awesome person. Unlike you.

You have flat-out said that you do not want ranged SV to return and you want SV to remain melee. So why would we listen to you when you start declaring what will and will not be favourable to our side? This is why tone-policing doesn’t work.

Only cause you go about the topic like a bully. Once again, i don’t know of any self-respecting person who is just going to allow that. You keep mentioning tone policing and yet here you are in a new thread doing it yet again.

P.S. I don’t consider 4th spec to be a remotely likely or feasible solution at all, so whenever you start encouraging us to ask for that I see it as yet another attempt to lead the ranged Survival discussion into a dead end.

Ok?

That’s all on you. You’re the one who came into this poor mans thread and completely derailed it…

Once again…

[Malwares-grobbulus]

So, the best solution for dealing with a troll is to not feed one. Let’s drop the irrelevent discussions and move forward with meaningful conversation and productive criticism concerning this lovely concept I’ve introduced.

[Generous-zuljin]

I miss it dearly, but truthfully every spec is going to have its followers–players that enjoy what a spec has to offer. Perhaps, they should have created the melee version as a 4th, instead of replacing the ranged version entirely.

But that’s why so many of us are advocating for its return, and post what we envision how this spec could play out if it ever saw the light of day again. I just keep telling myself that, maybe one day, Blizzard will finally listen.

[Generous-zuljin]

Personally, I’d like for it to be a baseline ability for this version of “Survival” followed by a set of talents that alter it in some way, just as Ghorak suggested.

[Malwares-grobbulus]

I’ve made a number of adjustments throughout the design that you may find more appealing, particularly concerning a select few abilities and talents you pointed out.

Resource: Focus – passive regeneration at 5 Focus per second.

Increased from 2. This favors spenders more and makes the spec rely less on Cobra Shot spamming, which has also been adjusted to return less Focus than before. See Cobra Shot below.

Napkin math suggests that this brings the overall return of Focus potentially higher, albeit slightly, in a single period where Focus begins at cap with full ability spam (Arcane Shot having the greatest effect on Focus here) with Focus-enhancing talents selected (haste left out of the equation).

Number can maybe be upped slightly, but at the risk of essentially-free Arcane Shots.

Ranged Prowess
Your critical strike chance is increased by 5% for each of your damage-over-time effects on your primary target, and critical strikes made by Explosive Shot have a percent chance equal to your current Ranged Prowess effect to apply Exposed Vulnerability to the target.
:
Exposed Vulnerability increases all damage received by 5% for 5 sec.

Wording has been fine-tuned to more accurately explain the intent of this passive.

Focused Arrows
1 to 50 Focus
Instant — 2 min cooldown
Channel your Focus and reset the cooldown on all your shots. For the next 10 seconds, these abilities are free and deal up to 100% additional damage, based on the amount of Focus consumed, for their entire duration.
:
Your passive Focus regen is paused during this effect.

Perhaps one of the biggest changes made, this iteration helps compensate for human-error (although still possible) and allows for more freedom in the rotation, but still requires a bit of set-up via Focus pooling.

Also, see talents for additional changes regarding this cooldown.

Quick Shots
Instant — 10 sec cooldown
When enabled, your ranged auto attacks fire twice as often. These shots benefit from your Enhanced Arrows.
:
Your passive Focus regen is paused during this effect. Lasts until canceled.

Still questionable, but I can’t shake an idea such as this. Perhaps it can be scrapped and reintroduced as a rotational cooldown with a short duration.

Cobra Shot
2 sec cast
Shoot two cobra fangs that impale your primary target and a nearby enemy, dealing 100 Physical damage to each target and extending the duration of your Serpent Sting by 2 sec. Generates 10 Focus.
:
Deal 50% more damage to your primary target if there are no additional nearby enemies.
:
Usable while moving.

Duration increase upped from 1 to 2 sec. Single target damage increased upped from 25% to 50%.

Explosive Shot
15 Focus
Instant — 10 sec cooldown
Shoot an explosive arrow into your target, dealing 100 Physical damage and initiating a timer. After a short delay, the arrow detonates dealing 400 Fire damage every 0.5 sec for 2 sec.
:
2 charges

The delay remains for thematic reasons, but the baseline damage dealt affects only the primary target, as opposed to dealing AoE damage (for PvP purposes).

Arcane Shot
30 Focus
Instant
Shoot an arcane-infused arrow into your target, dealing 100 Physical damage and 400 Arcane damage.
:
Hitting a target affected by your Black Arrow reduces the cooldown of Black Arrow by 1 sec.

Focus cost increased from 20 to 30 to match the cost of Black Arrow, since it affects Black Arrow, to reduce the risk of too much Arcane Shot spam.

Chimaera Shot
Instant — 12 sec cooldown
Shoot a two-headed arrow into your primary target and a nearby enemy, dealing 400 Nature damage to one and 400 Frost damage to the other.
:
Deal 25% more damage to your primary target if there are no additional nearby enemies.
:
Generates 10 Focus per target hit.

Made instant cast, because it was originally set to 1 second which has never been the case in retail (and 2 non-instant cast generators made zero sense).

• Immolation Trap
  15 Focus
  Instant — 30 sec cooldown
  Set an explosive trap at the desired location. When triggered, an explosion sets all nearby enemies ablaze, causing 150 Fire damage every 1 sec for 10 sec.
• Ice Trap
  15 Focus
  Instant — 30 sec cooldown
  Set a freezing trap at the desired location. When triggered, the target is frozen in a block of ice for 1 min or until damaged.

Cost of both reduced to 15 and damage increased slightly to compensate for lengthy rotational cooldown. Can be tweaked to deal more damage, though.

TALENTS

I kept in mind your concern of having a single talent row include a mix of single target, cleave, aoe, and pvp effects. To an extent, I agree and will play around with a few more ideas when I get the opportunity.

Fire and Flames

Wildfire – When Explosive Shot detonates, deal additional Fire damage to all nearby enemies.

The AoE effect of Explosive Shot has been made into a talent!

Master of Arrows

More Arrows – Focused Arrows lasts for an additional 10 sec.

Perhaps the biggest change in this row, this doubles the duration of Focused Arrows, increasing the total time to 20 seconds. Lots of burst!

Lingering Shots – Increase the duration of Explosive Shot by 1 sec, and increase the duration of Black Arrow and Serpent Sting by 2 sec.

Added Serpent Sting and Black Arrow to this effect. Higher DoT up-time means more Arcane Shots!

[Generous-zuljin]

Perhaps the biggest change in this row, this doubles the duration of Focused Arrows, increasing the total time to 20 seconds. Lots of burst!

An alternative to this could be to reduce the cooldown X seconds per Focus used by the hunter.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

I’ve made a number of adjustments throughout the design that you may find more appealing, particularly concerning a select few abilities and talents you pointed out.

<3

Some nice changes there indeed.

Resource: Focus – passive regeneration at 5 Focus per second.

Increased from 2.

Much better. I can’t say exactly how well it would work in reality but, at least for single target, this could maybe work(combined with your Cobra Shot generator as well as Chimaera Shot).

This would put you at a total of 10 Focus/sec while casting Cobra Shots.
Combined with Chimaera which would essentially add (just below) 1 Focus/sec. If used on CD.
And some extra haste with gear could probably yield another 1 Focus/sec. Maybe a little less.

I’m still concerned about whether a model such as this would work for multi-target situations though. But well, Focus tuning is usually a quick fix if there happens to be an issue.

Wording has been fine-tuned to more accurately explain the intent of this passive.

Still thinking about the proc rate(=impact on gameplay) though…

Focused Arrows

Channel your Focus and reset the cooldown on all your shots. For the next 10 seconds, these abilities are free and deal up to 100% additional damage, based on the amount of Focus consumed, for their entire duration.
:
Your passive Focus regen is paused during this effect.

Perhaps one of the biggest changes made, this iteration helps compensate for human-error (although still possible) and allows for more freedom in the rotation, but still requires a bit of set-up via Focus pooling.

While I’m no particular fan of (Major) CDs that are flat percentage-based damage boosts to abilities. I would agree that it looks better now.

Quick Shots

Still questionable, but I can’t shake an idea such as this. Perhaps it can be scrapped and reintroduced as a rotational cooldown with a short duration.

Hmm…

Yeah, it still feels a bit odd to me.
It essentially feels like you’re replacing your ability to execute your normal abilities in favor of more Auto Shots (that causes random extra damage).

It might eventually turn out to be a damage increase but…yeah I dno really.

Cobra Shot

Duration increase upped from 1 to 2 sec. Single target damage increased upped from 25% to 50%.

Better(IMO).

I still think a talent option that somehow allows players to extend the duration even more on a per cast-basis would be good here.
I’ve heard many say that this mechanic was something that they liked during MoP.

Explosive Shot

The delay remains for thematic reasons, but the baseline damage dealt affects only the primary target, as opposed to dealing AoE damage (for PvP purposes).

Focus cost increased from 20 to 30 to match the cost of Black Arrow, since it affects Black Arrow, to reduce the risk of too much Arcane Shot spam.

Agreed.

Chimaera Shot
Instant — 12 sec cooldown

Made instant cast, because it was originally set to 1 second which has never been the case in retail (and 2 non-instant cast generators made zero sense).

I actually missed that you had originally set it to have a cast time. Yeah, this was indeed a good correction. Multiple active Focus generators having a cast time would not be very fun to deal with in general.

• Ice Trap
  15 Focus
  Instant — 30 sec cooldown

Cost of both reduced to 15 and damage increased slightly to compensate for lengthy rotational cooldown. Can be tweaked to deal more damage, though.

For Immolation Trap, I would probably set it to have a longer CD. Personally I would not mind a 30sec CD but, many players don’t like having offensive traps as part of their rotation/base priority. Putting it at a longer baseline CD would allow for it to count as more of a situational ability as opposed to being “rotational”.

Secondly, I would remove the Focus cost of Ice Trap entirely. CC and utility feels better when you don’t have to rely on your main resource for it. Especially within some areas of the game.

Thematically, I agree that it makes sense for it to require some focus from you when used. But for practical reasons, I would still take that part out.

The AoE effect of Explosive Shot has been made into a talent!

Good one.

Perhaps the biggest change in this row, this doubles the duration of Focused Arrows, increasing the total time to 20 seconds. Lots of burst!

Not bad.

Though I would actually agree with @Generous here that a built-in CD reduction mechanic if you pick that talent, would be a good thing.

As it would allow for more burst windows during a fight. Keeping the boost window at 10 seconds would still allow you to refresh all DoTs as well as using some additional abilities during it’s uptime.

Lingering Shots – Increase the duration of Explosive Shot by 1 sec, and increase the duration of Black Arrow and Serpent Sting by 2 sec.

Added Serpent Sting and Black Arrow to this effect. Higher DoT up-time means more Arcane Shots!

As Cobra Shot has that built-in function of extending Serpent Sting with each cast, I’m not sure how useful this would be for that particular ability.

Good for the other 2 though on that part.

Perhaps this talent still needs something more, apart from extending DoTs.

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

After all of these years, it’s still astounding that Bepples can’t grasp the idiocy of telling people that their “opinions” are wrong.

[Bepples-barthilas]

In my opinion the sky is red.

How DARE you tell me I’m wrong!?

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

Well one of these things is a fact, i.e. the color of the sky, while the other is opinion based on whether you like a spec in a video game or not.

[Bepples-barthilas]

It’s a fact that the spec is terrible

[Malwares-grobbulus]

Still thinking about the proc rate(=impact on gameplay) though…

So I’ve made quite a different change to the second part of this passive, and now it affects only the hunter, seen below…

Ranged Prowess
Grants you 5% increased critical strike chance for each of your damage-over-time effects on the target, and critical strikes made by Explosive Shot have a percent chance equal to your current Ranged Prowess effect to apply Elemental Exposure to the target.
:
Elemental Exposure increases spell damage taken from your abilities by 20% for 5 sec.

… and that last talent that i haven’t quite figured out has been changed to this…

Elemental Prowess – Increases the duration of Explosive Shot by 1 sec, and increases your chance to apply Elemental Exposure to the target by an additional 10%.

I personally love the idea of this passive (and the talent that affects it) which is why I’m fighting so hard to make it work lol!

Naturally, though, not every design makes it into the final product BUT it’s fun to use the creative imagination.

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

There are in fact a good number of people who like it. You aren’t a dev, therefore your opinion of something in the game being terrible or not is not actually a fact. Ergo, it’s silly to continually tell people they’re wrong based off of opinion.

[Prowner-zuljin]

Perhaps trolling is a new concept to you. And reading. First line in the OP makes it very clear that someone like him has no place in this kind of thread.

[Malwares-grobbulus]

Aspect of the Wild
Instant — 2 min cooldown
Grants you 5 Focus per second and 10% increased haste and critical strike chance for 20 sec.

The original idea for the major cooldown has been replaced by this. There was difficulty in trying to make it feel like a good cooldown to use, and quite honestly I couldn’t find proper wording that I liked.

This is nearly an exact copy from retail, but with the added bonus of haste (which I think will be good for the DoTs). Though it isn’t exactly the strongest cooldown for BM, I think it’ll serve ranged Surv well considering its high dependency on critical strike chance and Focus regen, especially considering…

Focused Arrows – Reduces the cooldown of Aspect of the Wild by 1 sec for every 20 Focus you spend.

Though exact numbers aren’t final, I think the placeholders give you a pretty good idea of my intent here. The more Focus used, the more AotW you get, and you have a really good opportunity during the AotW window itself to get a good bit of cooldown reduction in.

[Illidari-dalaran]

Ranged Survival isn’t coming back. It’s really starting to get pretty sad how long you kids focus on something and obsess over it lol. Melee SV is amazing. Adapt or go to Classic.

[Malwares-grobbulus]

Please read the OP instead of mindlessly wandering into a post about spec fantasy discussion and giving irrelevant input. My intent is to give old ranged Surv lovers a concept to enjoy, not to harp about how melee Surv should be replaced.

[Bepples-barthilas]

There are in fact a good number of people who like it. You aren’t a dev, therefore your opinion of something in the game being terrible or not is not actually a fact. Ergo, it’s silly to continually tell people they’re wrong based off of opinion.

“good number” lol

Survival being a phoney Hunter spec is an actual fact proven by research scientists