Deserter from vote kick

[Forum-barthilas]

The way it has been programmed, to allow a majority rules to kick someone else is working. But the intention of having a kick system to remove players who are not doing the content they signed up for, is being abused.

Let’s go back a bit, about 11 years ago to be more precise, when the Dungeon Finder tool was first introduced. What was the intention of that system? To allow random players to join a group together and complete a dungeon without the need to scout of players.

Since the games introduction the types of content has expanded, from heroic dungeons to mythic and LFG raids, now IE and Warfronts, some of which are in the Dungeon Finder, some are not, some queued via a different method, but the same intention, to group with random players of random skill at a minimum character level and iLVL.

So what is the intention of a queue system? For like minded players to join up without the need to trawl through an LFG channel and seamlessly join a group to do said content.

Normal and Heroic dungeons would be the norm, a tank, healer and 3 DPS to work together to complete the content. LFG was introduced to allow players who did not have the time to find a raiding guild or follow a set schedule to still experience the raids, Warfronts were just another raid type where you needed X tanks and healers to ensure you could get through the content and PVP was to allow X number of players vs. the same number of players to fight and win under certain circumstances.

IE was designed for, count it, THREE players to fight the NPC’s or other players, collect azerite and win. Three, not 1 or 2, but 3.

Anyone who is found the be abusing the system and go against the way it was designed and intended to be played can be reported and as it has been in the past, banned for doing so. You try be smart in WSG and glitch somewhere with the flag so you cannot lose the flag, you get banned. In LFG, all raid scenarios and all versions of dungeons, basically in any instance, if you find a way to abuse a mechanic to make it impossible to lose, you get banned.

Content is made with a certain intention to do that content, being AFK or simply being a tool and not participating, was not the intention. No one in any game industry is going to make a game that allows players to simply be there and gain something out of it unless it is an AFK specific game like you find on mobile devices.

The game does have set measures in place that will kick someone for being AFK automatically, but that is easily circumvented in that you just auto run in a wall or use a keyboard clicker to make your character jump once every 30 seconds.

So in comes the intention of the VTK system. How it is programmed is one thing, a majority rules was and is still the easiest way to program the system. But what was the intention of the VTK system? To remove players from a random queue who are not doing the content as it was designed.

No system was designed with a “WTS” mindset. No system was designed to be completed with players AFK. No system is designed with players in mind who simply do nothing either. And I dare you to find me any examples of any games that are designed from scratch to allow players to ‘participate’ and gain rewards when they are in fact not participating.

Therefore if you are not doing the content as it was designed, the VTK system should be able to be used to remove you and allow someone else to take their place, someone who, oh I don’t know, wants to be there and wants to do the content.

But sadly with so many queues you end up with players selling runs, players joining and piss farting around, players purposely trying to make the run fail and even though you want to follow the system as it was intended, unless you follow the way the system was programmed, you cannot remove them.

But on the flip side you get players joining a random queue with random players who want to be there, who want to do the content, but because you have the majority you can abuse the system and kick someone for any reason, which means you are most certainly following the majority rules how it was programmed, but you are most certainly not following the way it was intended, to remove someone who should not be there.

And this is what you cannot seem to understand, the intention of a certain system is X, but using it to do Y is going against why any system or queue was put in place in the first instance and like all systems if you abuse it, you should get banned.

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

I never asked you to prove it. I told you that you had no proof that somehow things would be rainbows and sunshine if rewards were taken away from random queues.

Your claim is nonsensical. You have this twisted view that everyone is forced to do all of this random content they don’t want to do just to get a usually meaningless random reward from it. And that somehow, if they aren’t forced to do all of this random queued content that supposedly they have to do, it’ll make everyone happier and play better and not get kicked.

https://media.giphy.com/media/2fs2I4ujlBf20/giphy.gif

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

I think you should look into allowing yourself to think emotionally on occasion. There’s an element of empathy for people whose minds are structured differently than yours that I think you may be lacking.

On the contrary, I fully accept that they are this way and my suggestion actually benefits them greatly. I have a cousin who actually has obsessive compulsive disorder and watching him get tortured by carrots on a stick in video games is heart wrenching. That’s why I think extra incentives to play a way you don’t won’t to is terrible.

If anything, Blizzard should be giving people incentives for doing content they want to do, not to (unintendedly, I presume and hope) prey upon these people’s natures to get them to do content Blizzard wants them to do that they have no desire to do, but instead feel like they should because they get a “bonus”.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

I never asked you to prove it. I told you that you had no proof that somehow things would be rainbows and sunshine if rewards were taken away from random queues.

Hahahahahaha, you never asked me to prove it yet go on telling me I have no proof, thus saying “unless you have proof what you’re saying is invalid”. Like I asked, what proof would you like me to give you? How could I be expected to obtain proof? Perhaps that is why I said your standard is ridiculous.

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

thus saying “unless you have proof what you’re saying is invalid”

Nope. Thus saying, “your theory is nonsensical and in no way fixes the issues people have with the VTK system or debuff.”

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

What proof could you expect me to get?

I’m going to have to start responding in single sentences like this if you’re going to only respond to one part of what I say

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

I fully accept that they are this way and my suggestion actually benefits them greatly.

It sounds kind of like a whether-you-like-it-or-not thing, though. Like, “I’m going to do what I think is best for you without regard for your opinion.”

I’d agree that for a person with obsessive-compulsive disorder, such guidance might be necessary, but it shouldn’t be applied to the general public.

[Dropmac-lightbringer]

bruh this never happens to me… anymore…

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

Of course, let’s focus on the one random word and not the entire nonsensical theory you have.

Most people do not care about some stupid random reward you get from running a random dungeon or IE. No one is forced to run randoms. No one is going to suddenly stop being a jerk, stop being lazy or stop being bad at the game if they took out a random queue reward. This is not going to suddenly solve things and make people VTK less.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

What proof do you have that most people do not do randoms as opposed to specifics for the bonus reward? What proof do you have that this won’t reduce the need to vote to kick?

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

What proof do you have

Ah, yes… still can’t defend your own argument and still have to obsess over one stupid word. LOLOLOL…

Considering the bag of random gear is only for leveling in dungeons, please explain to me how a 120 gives two craps about it? A normal or heroic queue for a level 120 is mostly worthless for a tiny little shard of AP. World quests give better rewards. IEs give some AP and a random bag of crap that is useless.

You can take away those rewards and it changes nothing. People run randoms because it’s faster and they don’t have to beg in trade chat. That’s it.

That changes absolutely nothing about how people play or their attitudes. The fact that you think it will is astoundingly hilarious.

[Sakurä-suramar (Sakurä)]

The point is more that there isn’t any reason why someone should be punished for doing the right thing just because others choose to do the wrong thing.

They aren’t being punished. What’s happening is that the system cannot know why they are no longer part of the group. It cannot tell the difference between someone being kicked versus someone pulling the power cord out of the socket.

Sure they can leave but that is just as disruptive of their gameplay as being kicked.

If the other 2 party members are being problematic and there’s nothing you can do about it, as the case was here, why would you want to stay? Whose gameplay is being disrupted - theirs for taking a debuff to get a better group rather than one they allege was doing nothing? Or those who evidently had no desire to play with the OP, whose removal doesn’t hurt their plans any?

Honestly it’s probably more likely that the person was boosting their own character or something similar. Or at least that was my first thought when I read the post.

We may never know. The OP didn’t say and I doubt they would know either.

They didn’t need to really kick them though, they could have just continued on as OP could never get them kicked with their numbers protecting them both.

They could have, sure - but what I think happened (based on the details provided) was that they took offense to the OP trying to kick someone assumed to be afk that really wasn’t, and that it was indicative of the kind of player they are. I don’t know about you, but if someone did that to me and both my guildmate and I knew I wasn’t actually afk, I’d be pretty unhappy too.

They definitely used the fact that they couldn’t be out voted as they had 100% of the votes to deliberately get rid of them out of spite.

Which means either put up with it or leave are the only two options the OP had. Those two players have as much a right to be there as the OP did. I would argue that the overall size of the group makes it a more dangerous move to kick as opposed to a 5-man group. There isn’t as much leeway.

It’s similar to 3 player groups in 5 mans forcing out players, particularly before finishing dungeons simply because they can.

Absolutely, although I would say there’s more wiggle room there.

But the intention of having a kick system to remove players who are not doing the content they signed up for, is being abused.

Wrong. The underlying principle is this - the other players cannot be forced to play with you. The reason(s) is/are irrelevant. That alone makes it not abuse.

Anyone who is found the be abusing the system and go against the way it was designed and intended to be played can be reported and as it has been in the past, banned for doing so.

There was no abuse here. You can make an argument that the intent is for the 3 players to play together, but people often either split up or one person runs off. Would you consider that “against the way it was designed”? You can report someone for any reason whatsoever, but that doesn’t mean they did anything wrong.

You try be smart in WSG and glitch somewhere with the flag so you cannot lose the flag, you get banned.

Key word - “glitch”.

if you find a way to abuse a mechanic to make it impossible to lose, you get banned.

Going afk, even for just a minute, is not abuse of mechanics.

Content is made with a certain intention to do that content, being AFK or simply being a tool and not participating, was not the intention.

That doesn’t make it abusive in any way, shape, or form. I supplied one very good example.

No one in any game industry is going to make a game that allows players to simply be there and gain something out of it unless it is an AFK specific game like you find on mobile devices.

And they generally can’t. Game publishers cannot force people to sit at their computer and not step away, even for an instant. Got to use the bathroom? They can’t stop you. Trying to run a quick instance while dinner is cooking? If it burns, too bad for you. No - they aren’t going to do that, and they cannot prevent you from walking away. Furthermore, the OP had options - put up with it, or leave. They were no more forced to stay any more than they were to put up with players playing in a manner they didn’t agree with.

The game does have set measures in place that will kick someone for being AFK automatically, but that is easily circumvented in that you just auto run in a wall or use a keyboard clicker to make your character jump once every 30 seconds.

From the details provided, that isn’t what happened here. The person evidently wasn’t afk, or was away for only a brief moment.

But what was the intention of the VTK system? To remove players from a random queue who are not doing the content as it was designed.

Or, in other words, to remove players with whom you do not wish to play. As is what happened here.

Therefore if you are not doing the content as it was designed, the VTK system should be able to be used to remove you and allow someone else to take their place

And it can be. But by a 2-1 majority vote, not only was the person not kicked, but by the same 2-1 majority vote OP got kicked because they didn’t want to play with him. That is functioning as intended.

unless you follow the way the system was programmed, you cannot remove them.

But you can. You need a majority vote - in this case, you need 2 of 3 votes to kick. And they had those votes. Sure, it sucks - but that’s working as it was intended to.

But on the flip side you get players joining a random queue with random players who want to be there, who want to do the content

Key word - “random”. Start your own group.

but because you have the majority you can abuse the system and kick someone for any reason

Not abuse of the system.

which means you are most certainly following the majority rules how it was programmed

As it should be.

but you are most certainly not following the way it was intended

Except you are. They didn’t want to play with the OP. 2-1 vote was held, resulting in OP getting kicked. That is as intended.

to remove someone who should not be there.

All 3 players have the same right to be there. But there is no right to play with any given other player(s).

And this is what you cannot seem to understand

It is you who does not understand. Allow me to repeat it again, the system (and Blizzard itself) cannot force other players to play with you. That’s all there is to it.

and like all systems if you abuse it, you should get banned.

Which did not happen here, hence no one will get banned.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

Considering the bag of random gear is only for leveling in dungeons, please explain to me how a 120 gives two craps about it? A normal or heroic queue for a level 120 is mostly worthless for a tiny little shard of AP. World quests give better rewards. IEs give some AP and a random bag of crap that is useless.

You can take away those rewards and it changes nothing. People run randoms because it’s faster and they don’t have to beg in trade chat. That’s it.

This is all just ”theorizing” about human behavior the exact same way I was and is baseless and irrational.

I get random battlegrounds where people go “welp I hate this one” then proceed to do nothing, and outright admit it, the entire game.

People do do them for the random, meaningless reward. People do do them because it is the first button that appears when they press i. And people do perform suboptimally and with apathy when doing tasks they don’t like or enjoy.

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

baseless and irrational

Glad to see you finally realize that’s what your theory is. Took you long enough.

Have fun with your nonsense. I’m out.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

Glad to see you finally realize that’s what your theory is. Took you long enough.

Have fun with your nonsense. I’m out.

Bowed out with literally saying “I know you are but what am I.”

Priceless and for the record.

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

Y’all two need to chill. This is not that serious.

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

LOL okay, I’ll bite.

1. That’s not what “literally” means. But nice try.
2. If that’s what you managed to get out of that, then you really didn’t comprehend.
3. I worked 12 hours today and have no desire to spend any more time on someone who has no real argument, tunnel visions on a single word and insults me. Thus, bedtime. Because I wasted way too much time on your ridiculousness as it is.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

Apparently the concept that people perform suboptimally doing something they dislike is a radical hot take and completely unproven.

Sleep well, I can see you’ve had a rough night.

[Forum-barthilas]

You still, and probably never will, seem to understand the difference between the intention of anything versus how it is programmed into the game.

Like when a mechanic on a boss fight is programmed to do one thing and has a certain intention as to why it is in place, and players find a way around it and abuse it to make it easier to win. There is a reason players get banned for doing such things.

Like when the bug was around where players could hand in a quest or finish a WQ and bug it out so they quest never actually ticked over meaning you could hand it in again and again and again allowing you to abuse the forging system. This was never the intention of the system, but due to how it was programmed it meant players could do it, hence the mass bans when this was found out.

There is also a reason when you Google “WoW vote to kick” and see a dozen posts, half of which talk about how VTK is being abused and is bad, and not just from WoW, but other games also talk about it and how it is being abused and needs to stop.

Even when I Google “Vote to kick is a good system” I still get pages that talk about how it is a negative system and being abused. Hell, the second page when I Google that is from Blizzard talking about how crap it is, I cannot even find a page easily that talks about the system in a good way.

I have been here playing this game longer than some of the playing base has been alive, and not once have I ever seen a post that talks anything good about VTK, it always comes up as negative and how it gets abused. And I have been here since before VTK and Dungeon Finder, even before patch 1.12 when the game was broken and you could wall jump into Mount Hyjal.

Even back when you could drag a world boss anywhere on the continent, most certainly not the intention of a world boss and almost the sole reason why they changed how a boss responds when in combat, because it was not the intention to drag Lord Kazzak from Blasted Lands all the way to Stormwind and destroy the city.

It’s the same here, the intention of why VTK became a thing was not to “Kick you because I don’t like you” or force you to make a premade group to stop yourself from being kicked, it was implemented as a part of the Dungeon Finder experience which was originally made to allow randoms to join each other.

So you say:

Allow me to repeat it again, the system (and Blizzard itself) cannot force other players to play with you.

But yet those who join a random queue are putting themselves in a situation that forces themselves to play with another person.

You say I cannot force someone to play with me and I should make my own group, but I am not forcing them to play with me, they are forcing themselves to play with me by willingly joining a queue system that pits a random person with them.

And with such an action they should be forced to follow the rules and not abuse a system just because of how it has been implemented. I know I certainly did not ask to join a group which has an AFK, why than should I be kicked out and be forced to wait out the debuff to try again? I join those queues as they were intended, for all players to be actively participating and doing the content.

[Sakurä-suramar (Sakurä)]

You still, and probably never will, seem to understand

I understand all too well - but I need to get to bed, so I’m just going to respond by saying this one more time:

Blizzard cannot, and will not, force other players to play with you who do not wish to do so. The system is working as intended, no matter how much you want to argue otherwise. This is what it all boils down to, in a nutshell. Agree or disagree, this is how it is intended to work. If you wish to see a change, then make a suggestion for improvement by posting it here or via the in-game suggestion box.