I'm just confused as to why raising Derek is being presented as the straw breaking the camel's back. Seems pretty tame compared to all the other stuff that's happened so far.
I've been working on my Horde alt for a little while and just finished up the war campaign a few days ago. The interesting thing is, that is actually the EXACT moment where I myself felt the dirtiest and felt like things were going too far.
I don't think it's as "tame" as you are suggesting. A lot of the other things that have happened I was able to
kind of justify as being fog of war. Preemptive military engagements are hotly debated, and people do things during battle that they might not do if they weren't in the heat of things. With Derek, though, it is entirely premeditated and profane. Particularly when I saw his body strung up in front of the cave where Nathanos was blathering to me.
That is of course anecdotal, but that is absolutely the moment where it hit me in the gut the hardest.
EDIT: Almost forgot, you can add finding Valentine's body, raising him to undeath against his will, and then using him as fodder when the Proudmoore general had him dangling by the throat to that whole sordid affair.
There is a gratuitous difference between animating bones with death magic, and forcefully ripping a soul out of the Shadowlands and shoving it back in a corpse. Specifically one that's been dead for 20+ years.
Paging Treng, paging Mr. Treng...
10/29/2018 08:58 AMPosted by
Zuleika
Paging Treng, paging Mr. Treng...
Well, Undercity wasn't great either given the context. An atrocity, but not akin to raising Derek.
They wrote what is possibly the singular most horrific and heinous act ever committed within the life of WoW, by a player faction no less, and they just don't seem to understand what they've done.
Eh, it was just night elves. Why should Blizzard write their near-genocide with any more reverence or respect than the poop quest two zones down?
I have a spell that raise undead 10 at a time, and the Forsaken have been doing it for a few years now.
There is a gratuitous difference between animating bones with death magic, and forcefully ripping a soul out of the Shadowlands and shoving it back in a corpse. Specifically one that's been dead for 20+ years.
1. Obsessed
2. Not really. I feel like the mass of people DKs raise ends up weighing well against a single Citizen Kane.
1. Obsessed
2. Not really. I feel like the mass of people DKs raise ends up weighing well against a single Citizen Kane
1. Get over yourself, cupcake.
2. You just ignored my post entirely. DK magic is different from Forsaken magic. It's basically puppetry.
1. Obsessed
2. Not really. I feel like the mass of people DKs raise ends up weighing well against a single Citizen Kane
1. Get over yourself, cupcake.
2. You just ignored my post entirely. DK magic is different from Forsaken magic. It's basically puppetry.
So desecrating corpses is all good now, just not certain ways? C'mon son. Neither is righteous. Hell Thassarians pet is his former squad mates soul bound to his own corpse so DKs can do that as well.
If you only ignored it because it wasn't shoved in your face you're definitely just as bad as those who faced and accepted it.
1. Obsessed
2. Not really. I feel like the mass of people DKs raise ends up weighing well against a single Citizen Kane
1. Get over yourself, cupcake.
2. You just ignored my post entirely. DK magic is different from Forsaken magic. It's basically puppetry.
Not that I agree with Myro's reaction, but Scourge raising isn't quite like basic puppetry. You see for this to work, your soul HAS to be bound up in your corpses, so you are very much aware of yourself. It's like being in a state of sleep paralysis...where you murder people.
This is why Necromancy is so taboo. It often requires warping, twisting the soul in some way or form like in the Aurchenei Crypts to advance your knowledge, sometimes outright
wiping your spirit from creation.
Have I mentioned that warfare in Azeroth is a nightmare hellscape?
... 1. Get over yourself, cupcake.
2. You just ignored my post entirely. DK magic is different from Forsaken magic. It's basically puppetry.
Not that I agree with Myro's reaction, but Scourge raising isn't quite like basic puppetry. You see for this to work, your soul HAS to be bound up in your corpses, so you are very much aware of yourself. It's like being in a state of sleep paralysis...where you murder people.
This is why Necromancy is so taboo. It often requires warping, twisting the soul in some way or form like in the Aurchenei Crypts to advance your knowledge, sometimes outright wiping your spirit from creation.
Have I mentioned that warfare in Azeroth is a nightmare hellscape?
Still better than 40k. There is a reason no one can take the mantle of edgiest grimdark :P
C'mon son
Hey, lookit that, you said an edge thing finally. But instead of hashing it out with a Forsaken bottom boy like you, I'm gonna debate with Darethy instead.
10/29/2018 09:40 AMPosted by
Darethy
Not that I agree with Myro's reaction, but Scourge raising isn't quite like basic puppetry. You see for this to work, your soul HAS to be bound up in your corpses, so you are very much aware of yourself. It's like being in a state of sleep paralysis...where you murder people.
That's fair. Have they ever really gone over what the extent of soulbinding is like with Death Knight minions though? How does it differentiate from raising a permanent Forsaken?
C'mon son
Hey, lookit that, you said an edge thing finally. But instead of hashing it out with a Forsaken bottom boy like you, I'm gonna debate with Darethy instead.
10/29/2018 09:40 AMPosted by
Darethy
Not that I agree with Myro's reaction, but Scourge raising isn't quite like basic puppetry. You see for this to work, your soul HAS to be bound up in your corpses, so you are very much aware of yourself. It's like being in a state of sleep paralysis...where you murder people.
That's fair. Have they ever really gone over what the extent of soulbinding is like with Death Knight minions though? How does it differentiate from raising a permanent Forsaken?
We have not talked about if they have changed their methods no, but we tolerate Warlocks who send peoples souls straight to hell. After Legion I wouldn't be surprised, to my knowledge I can't remember a example of just animating a corpse without a soul attached to it BEFORE Voidmancy, if that even leaves a soul untouched, i'm a little wary of Umbric now.
It paints a rather unflattering image of what the Horde and Alliance will tolerate in and of itself. But yes, not anywhere near as bad as WH40k.
10/29/2018 09:50 AMPosted by
Darethy
but we tolerate Warlocks who send peoples souls straight to hell.
Oh, can I get an example on this one too?
But yeah, I'm willing to bet at some point Blizzard will retcon the sh!t out of some of these taboo practices to make the playerbase feel like they're not diabolically evil... maybe. I don't know. A lot of this information comes from older sources, and it causes a bit of a dissonance with the story they're currently trying to tell.
@Darethy totally agree, I just...like part of the reason Warcraft is more compelling/interesting that 40k to me is because itâs not an edgelordâs wet dream. Granted the 8th edition lore advances have been...interesting to say the least. But they are interesting specifically because GW had gone SOOO far down the esgelord well there wasnât much more to mine there.
I'm telling you guys, Blizzard doesn't understand Teldrassil. They don't fully comprehend the ramifications of what they wrote, I'm convinced of it.
They were seemingly caught off guard by the negative reaction a lot of Horde players had to it. And we've seen how it's been played out so far, how various characters have reacted.
They wrote what is possibly the singular most horrific and heinous act ever committed within the life of WoW, by a player faction no less, and they just don't seem to understand what they've done.
On the one hand, that would explain a
lot of things about this expansion so far. On the other hand, I'm at a loss to imagine how else they would have expected Teldrassil to be received.
I'm telling you guys, Blizzard doesn't understand Teldrassil. They don't fully comprehend the ramifications of what they wrote, I'm convinced of it.
They were seemingly caught off guard by the negative reaction a lot of Horde players had to it. And we've seen how it's been played out so far, how various characters have reacted.
They wrote what is possibly the singular most horrific and heinous act ever committed within the life of WoW, by a player faction no less, and they just don't seem to understand what they've done.
On the one hand, that would explain a lot of things about this expansion so far. On the other hand, I'm at a loss to imagine how else they would have expected Teldrassil to be received.
We were
supposed to understand how "morally grey" the whole thing was.
10/29/2018 10:06 AMPosted by
Yrithe
We were supposed to understand how "morally grey" the whole thing was.
"All the way back to Orcs vs Humans, you may have assumed Humans were the good guys and Orcs were evil, but there was more nuance than that."
10/29/2018 09:50 AMPosted by
Darethy
but we tolerate Warlocks who send peoples souls straight to hell.
Oh, can I get an example on this one too?
But yeah, I'm willing to bet at some point Blizzard will retcon the sh!t out of some of these taboo practices to make the playerbase feel like they're not diabolically evil... maybe. I don't know. A lot of this information comes from older sources, and it causes a bit of a dissonance with the story they're currently trying to tell.
So here's an awesome and horrifying bit of lore. People often wonder why Discord, or Fel, is aligned on the Light side of the Cosmology chart. This is, at least in my view, because Fel is explicitly created by the burning of life force and of souls, this is it's primary distinction from Void which is what is doing the burning in the first place.
Fel is a chaotic, volatile energy that is actually even WORSE then necromancy. Ever wonder where Doomguards came from? They were crafted by the titans to punish those who delved into such sacrificial magics as they deemed it the ultimate perversion of life, the trading of life and spiritual force for power where Void simply causes something to cease to exist. Fel is using your body, and your soul, as a furnace that is so intense that when a soul is touched by a greater warlock it utterly destroys the spirit within it's conflagration.
This is why the green tint on fel flames, ACTUAL fel flames is such a big deal. Fel fire cannot be put out by non-magical means because it's not using anything in the material world to burn you really,
it's roasting your soul alive. Demons can only be summoned with souls for exactly this reason, the entire Legion is kept on Sargeras's leash because they are ADDICTED to the raw chaotic magics conjured by a souls destruction. Hence, when your soul is trapped in a shard, it creates a pathway between the crystal and the twisting nether that demons can sense. It's kind of like attaching a worm on the end of a fishing pole in a morbid sort of way.
Warlocks are not very nice people. I suppose in that sense it's less 'sent to hell' and more 'slow roasted in pure agony before you're granted merciful oblivion.'
10/29/2018 10:06 AMPosted by
Yrithe
We were supposed to understand how "morally grey" the whole thing was.
Blizzard:
Lays a hand on an orc player's shoulder, offers them a box a tissues. "Don't worry lil' buddy, this expansion is all about finding out what the Horde means. You're not really a bad guy. :)"
Charred Night Elf: "What's this expansion about for us then?"
Blizzard: "SHUT UP AND GET BACK ON THE TREE, YOU PROP. THE HORDE NEEDS MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT."
10/28/2018 07:37 PMPosted by
Kazala
Don't worry, "I'll never betray my Warchief" folks.
I'm sure they're tooooootally not going to railroad you into fighting Sylvanas by the end of this expansion.
No point in a sarcastic lie. Sylvanas has been on the raid plate since cata. Now that shes warcheif it's now going to happen. Remember, dishonorable warcheifs, or anyone who dishonors themselves in the horde, is as good as dead.
SoO showed us this, all warcraft history has told us this.
10/29/2018 09:54 AMPosted by
Saiphas
@Darethy totally agree, I just...like part of the reason Warcraft is more compelling/interesting that 40k to me is because itâs not an edgelordâs wet dream. Granted the 8th edition lore advances have been...interesting to say the least. But they are interesting specifically because GW had gone SOOO far down the esgelord well there wasnât much more to mine there.
Some of the Horus Heresy has
amazing stories detailing why people do what they do. Lorgar Aurelian, Betrayer, Fulgrim, Path of Heaven, Master of Mankind, and outside of that Talon of Horus, Lucius the Eternal Blade, and
especially Clonelord and Primogenitor.Fabius Bile has, weirdly, become one of the most sympathetic characters in WH40k to me.