Demoralizing shout/roar generating too much threat


#25

Demo shout was always great for AOE threat, I am not convinced this is a bug. People just didn’t try to AOE down entire dungeons back then, and when you’re doing normal (less than 5-6) pulls demo+tab sunder is more efficient than straight demo spam.

edit: and for everyone saying there is some multiplicative threat bug, can you please link or post where this was actually tested and how you came to this conclusion?


#26

What I recall from warrior tanking in Vanilla and TBC was that spamming shouts was not a viable strategy for holding threat for AOE.

There’s not a clear distinction about this, but I believe the shouts and buffs should only generate threat when a buff or debuff was actually applied to the target. Threat generation did not stack if the debuff or buff was already applied (i.e. if demo shout is already on target, threat generation did not accumulate from doing another demo shout). Same applied to battle shout, if all 5 of your party members already had the battle shout buff, then no additional threat would be generated if you used battle shout again.

This is making dungeon AOE farming a lot safer and seemingly a lot more like Retail. Game-breaking if you ask me.


#27

It’s now adding the entire threat generated from the mobs affected to all mobs instead of splitting it amongst them as it should. Its broken; just like many things have been broken which makes this a horrible launch of “classic”. Game breaking along with several other issues like raid xp exploited and layers manipulated

Waiting for fixes and a new server set that doesnt allow transfers to the server to bring ill-gotten spoils to the new server


#28

Why would it split threat? Its literally debuffing each mob the same.


#29

The thing I figure is, people just didnt understand threat as well in actual Vanilla, and spamming shouts was thought to not be that good.

Remember in actual vanilla alot of meta things today were thought to be bad.

Warriors in leather, daggers for tanks.
Etc.


#30

Demo shout was one of the easier things to test back in the day, though.

Put yourself into the shoes of a main tank back in Vanilla and TBC raiding -> even though we were first learning, we tested tons of things because we figured “Hey, what abilities do we have that is AOE and generates some kind of threat? Demo shout!”

I remember testing it back in the day and it never holding any type of aggro. Prime example was UBRS whelps. There was no way any tank was holding aggro on all those whelps, no matter what they did with the exception of challenging shout.

Sure, people were inexperienced in terms of testing out very specific loot, but demo shout was super easy to test out. This is simple enough strategy where if it worked back then, it’d work now. But it didn’t work back then. AOE dungeon farming wasn’t a popular or easy thing to do in Vanilla as it is in Classic now.

Edit addition: threat was figured out when raiding started -> threat meters needed to be accurate to raid and run dungeons accurately


#31

It’s 100% a bug. Battleshout reacts this way, that was the basis of phase 1 strats on nef back in vanilla. Demo shout never behaved like this.

It is actually pretty game breaking for dungeons.

I guess if you want to level 30-40 real quick as a warrior just head to SM and abuse this until blizzard patches it.


#33

That is fair I dont have any proof it worked otherwise.

So its obviously something the fake servers must have gotten wrong if that is the case since i remember seeing it was functioning in reports from those.


#34

#nochanges

This is a bug from 1.12, and therefore should not be changed.

Just looked up the old patch notes.

Patch 2.0.1

Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much threat.

#35

I spammed demo shout in vanilla for big AOE pulls (such as whelps)


#36

That is a different ability. Battle Shout is not the same ability as Demo Shout. Demo Shout did not hold aggro in Vanilla like it does in Classic. I tanked through all of Vanilla and it definitely did not work. This is the very reason the Battle Shout bug was used - Demo Shout didn’t hold aggro. If Demo Shout DID hold aggro in Vanilla, tanks would have been spamming that instead of Battle Shout.

They work in two very different ways. Battle Shout held aggro due to buff threat on your party. Demo Shout is currently holding aggro via debuff threat on your targets. This is definitely a bug and did not work like this in Classic.


#37

From a rather iconic threat analysis back in the day:

e) Demo Shout ftl. Demoralising shout does one sixth the threat of a sunder. Even spammed in defensive stance with defiance, you’re doing no more threat than 42dps on each mob. Besides picking up whelps in Onyxia and tanking panthers in the Panther boss encounter in ZG, i can’t see a compelling reason to use this.

And another from a reddit post :

Demoralizing shout = situational. When Demoralizing Shout is working correctly (read: not splitting threat between targets), it does 1/6 of the threat of one Sunder Armor per mob. Even with Defensive stance + Defiance, it does not generate enough threat by itself for you to out-pace healing aggro when tanking multiple mobs. In general, individually Sundering mobs (via tabbing) + Battle Shout + Cleave/Whirlwind will be of more use to you than spamming Demoralizing Shout.

The amount of people misremembering and mixing up battle shout and demo shout is staggering. BATTLE SHOUT was used to cheese nef and twin emps. Demo was never good for consistent aoe threat.

If Blizzard comes back and says this is working as intended I’ve lost complete faith. I can almost guarantee demo shout instead of dividing threat per mob is full threat for each mob or even giving a bonus for each mob, which is not how it functioned at all.


#38

Yup, I remember battle shout tanking. Used for adds in quite a few fights as buffs dont suffer from DR. Demo shout does or did however and was used 1x at the start and every 30 sec for dmg mitigation only, not to hold threat.


#39

Originally posted by Blizzard (View Original)CollapseHi All,We have identified a fix for an issue that was causing Demoralizing Shout and Demoralizing Roar to generate too much threat when applied to multiple enemies. In addition, we’ve also identified a fix for a separate issue that was causing Battle Shout and most healing spells, effects, and buffs to incorrectly split the threat they generate between enemies that had members of the buffed party on their threat list.Hotfixes for these issues are going to be deployed very soon, at which time all of these effects will match their functionality in the 1.12.

well fuk


#40

Im a little confused at the battle shout changes.


#41

:slight_smile:

/10char


#42

I’ve been experimenting with demo shout spam and its effectiveness seems exaggerated. For example paladin and mage AOE have no trouble stealing aggro from me when I do a charge pull (so, even starting with bonus rage) and spam it the whole fight which contradicts the other anecdotal claims in this thread. I only shout once at the start of the pull so that a small heal doesn’t take one of the adds. Beyond that I’m back to tab + revenge/sunder.

I’d like to see some actual experimentation instead of anecdotes though. For all I know, everyone chiming in on this thread has only been running dungeons with under-geared mages.


(Zenetta) #43

It was hotfix nerfed long before you were trying it. Not sure why a blue never posted to confirm when the hotfixes went live since they announced they were coming and then just went silent on this topic.

Battle shout should now be the shout you’d use for AoE threat, not demo. Demo shout was bugged to multiply threat based on the number of targets, which was not how it worked in 1.12 so they nerfed/fixed it.

Battle shout was bugged and not giving the amount of threat it was supposed to, so assuming it was also hotfixed (why did no blue ever post to confirm these hotfixes were both live?!) then battle shout now generates the amount of threat it’s supposed to generate x the number of friendly targets you buff with it.

edit: this was the blue post about the bugs but they never followed up: Demoralizing shout is bugged and it is why we have this AoE meta


#44

Battle shout is giving you threat per target buffed, including pets, and split to all mobs you are in combat with.

Demo shout will give threat, for all mobs hit, split to all mobs in combat with.

The bug was instead of splitting threat to all mobs in combat, it was applying it to each mob.

Demo shout threat wins when number of mobs > party members.

Neither values are high enough to hold enough threat from any dps, but it will hold against healing, because the healing threat was also too high - full threat on each mob instead of a split.


#45

Battleshout has the added benefit of being able to gain threat on mobs that are far away from you, I generally bow pull, los while spamming battleshout and no dps can wreck the pull. And I do remember battleshout being used for threat in some raid situations way back in vanilla, like razorgore in bwl when you opted for warrior kiting.