What about an agile demonic melee skirmisher?
I find it kinda silly. It’s like playing Shaman and not liking the elements theme, a Warlock that doesn’t like summoning demons or a Druid that doesn’t like nature.
So peeps don’t like that either, hence why Grimoire of Sacrifice exists. Same logic behind Lone Wolf for MM. Some peeps don’t like being an obese anthropomorphic owl, and thus Glyph of Stars exists. Drain Soul is a talent because afflocks are extremely polarized on whether they like or hate the rhythm it applies to their gameplay. Slice and Dice exists for those that don’t like Roll the Bones fishing.
There are options that run the gamut from entire cosmetic to relatively minor thematic effects to major gameplay flow effects. Demonic sits somewhere between the latter two, having both thematic impact and gameplay flow impact. Some peeps don’t like that.
Tbh, you and I don’t really have to understand that opinion. We just have to acknowledge that peeps hold it, and that it’s perfectly legitimate for them to have it. Demonic remaining a talent isn’t really a big deal in my book, as long as it’s well-balanced. First Blood is my priority.
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The bloodlet build in legion was amazing fun along side demonic. Xaedys said most of the points perfectly. Demonic is the demon hunter who feeds more into the demon within than other demon hunters, hence why it is a talent. Momentum is the demon hunter that focuses on the agility gained from demonic speed without actually becoming more demonic as often. As much as the gameplay of bloodlet is something I love I also like the theme of a not as demonically inclined dh, you have more control over it.
I feel like the non-demonic Demon Hunter is more like a Rogue. Feels weird not to have the demon theme behind the demon themed spec. Well, I guess it’s just like my father used to say: taste is like a butthole, everyone has their own.
Likewise.
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You still do have the demon theme it is just not as much of a focus. I think almost everyone wants first blood baseline though as it just feels right.
I really don’t get your hate for those talents, but i agree that Demonic is so thematic that it sets Havoc apart from every other spec in the game and just feels awesome to use from a gameplay perspective.
Also,
Again, there’s a problem with making First Blood baseline.
Right now, what’s the difference between the Havoc single target Rotation and the Havoc AoE rotation? Well without First Blood it’s Blade Dance. JUST Blade Dance.
Blizzard doesn’t like designing specs that don’t have a baseline difference between doing ST and AoE dps. There has to be at least 1 BASELINE rotational difference. That wouldn’t be the case if first blood was just baseline and not a rotational addition the player opts into.
So, unless they add another baseline difference to the specs AoE rotation, i doubt we’ll ever see First Blood as a baseline part of the spec, despite how much i enjoy the talent and would hate not having it. They need to add something else. Maybe make Fel Rush actually worth using.
On the other hand, having demonic baseline doesn’t compromise their design philosophy and is nothing but good for the spec.
They literally did the same thing with Eye Beam when they made it do additional damage to the primary target, so they are not as against as you think.
It’s either make First Blood baseline or give us another ability to take its place.
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Fury has no such rotational addition. Whirlwind is their standard filler even on single target. AoE just adjusts how often they cast it, it doesn’t add any abilities to the rotation.
Same largely with Fire, since they don’t transition to Flamestrike until around 5-6 targets, and only then if there isn’t a “primary” target. That’ll even more so be the case in Firelands, with Fire Blast providing an on-demand way to spread Ignite to a huge number of targets instantly. There’ll still likely be a transition point to Flamestrike, but being able to load up a single target with a big Ignite and then spread it to everything is really powerful, and requires no additional buttons.
So ya, not buying that requirement. First Blood would immensely benefit the single-target rotation, and should be made baseline. The other option, imo, is to remove First Blood as a talent entirely, reduce the cooldown and cost of Blade Dance (or remove the cooldown and retain the cost, so it effectively replaces Chaos Strike in AoE), and add a new short-CD nuke to the single target rotation in its place. Perhaps harken back to Illidan’s fight and add Shear as a high-damage nuke (on Illidan, it removed 60% of the target’s max HP unless they had AM up).
The point is to have some sort of short-CD ability in the single target rotation. First Blood fills that niche, and personally I adore the aesthetic of Blade dance, but I’d take anything that fills that niche.
I sure do miss good ol’ Ragnaros.
And there’s also Outlaw Rogues that literally just press a button to toggle their ST damage to do AoE instead. ST rotation being the same as AoE isn’t really a good argument.
First Blood impacts not only the numbers in a big way, but also majorly impacts gameplay. The rotation is simply horrendous without it (and the numbers reflect that lol).
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Hahahahaha, 
. You know, I’mma leave that, that mistype amuses me.
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Demonic has been too good for as brainless as it’s been all of BfA.
Xaedys’s preferences aside, I think they should #buffmomo so that we at least need to feel heartache any time we have to swap off it.
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Heartache when we swap off it? No, I’ll feel relief, and hatred when I have to take it. In fact, just like EN, if Momentum ends up being the top talent, I will not be playing my DH, period. I can tolerate Demon Blades if need be, though I dislike it, but Momentum is a freakin’ abomination as far as I’m concerned.
But then, I’m leaning rogue at the moment anyway. I love the change to Roll the Bones to remove fishing, and baking Toxic Blade in baseline for Sin means that Exsanguinate may actually see some time in the sun. I’m ambivalent towards the Sub changes, but I’m rather ambivalent to that entire spec, so /shrug.
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Sha of Anger voice “YES!!! Bring your rage to bear!” 
I still love momo. It is a pain in the butt, but for that reason, it deserves to perform better than Demonic. Blizzard definitely backburnered havoc DH design when they left that row the way it is.
I do think a 6 second Demonic window instead of 8 may do the trick.
I’m fine with it performing better, as long as “better” doesn’t become “mandatory”. It was simming better in Uldir as well (~2-3%), but most people still went Demonic because Momentum’s mostly edge fell away in the face of encounter mechanics. That’s a fine place for it to be, in my opinion. If you play it perfectly, it can do better, but for most players, it’s probably not worth the trouble.
That said, I’d also be fine if they just straight up deleted that pile of garbage. I’m not kidding, I will not play momentum. If it’s a choice between Momentum and being 5-10% behind in DPS, I’ll just go play another class that doesn’t force me into such an atrocious talent.
“Mandatory” means different things to different people.
I’ve felt the same way about Inquisition (Cata), Bloodtalons (always), and Clarity of Power (WoD) as you feel about Momentum, and have indeed moved away from those specs in the past because of it, so I know where you’re coming from. Momentum at least is distinctive, probably the most distinctive of any DPS buff ability or talent in the game, given its gameplay. I think that’s worth preserving.
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I don’t see the worth in preserving a terribly designed talent simply because it is distinctive. Bloodtalons was distinctive as well, and I’m glad it’s being deleted. Inquisition I don’t really mind now that it has a cap on the buff stacks. Same thing with Roll the Bones fishing, I’m not even slightly sad to see it go away.
There are several specs in the game that I just flat out refuse to play because of that type of thing, though. Outlaw right now, Retribution before the Inquisition cap, Feral with Bloodtalons (though fortunately Moment of Clarity is at least passable), Frost with Breath, Shadow since it got Breath as a baseline spec mechanic, Aff with Deathbolt, etc. If a mechanic like that becomes the only option for that spec, that spec ceases to exist as far as I’m concerned.
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Glad to see this thread got a fair amount of attention. Hopefully Blizzard or the alpha testers notice it.
I just really like Demonic guys, and it remaining a talent only leads to 2 bad outcomes imo.
Outcome #1: It’s bad and we never get to use it. 
Outcome #2: It’s once again the best option and not only prevents us from choosing other options if we want to be optimal whicj leads to a dead talent row, but its dominance also defines our entire talent build once again.
The same argument could be made for First Blood as well, but it’s not my focus. Either way, this thread has sparked a good amount of discussion on how we all feel about these talents and more.
Thanks
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Not gonna lie, but now that they incorporate Eye of Rage into Demonic Appetite, I don’t think the other two options are as competitive as Demonic. So unless they make Demonic into baseline, well Demonic will be the default talent again I think.
As for First Blood as baseline, I think keeping it as a talent is fine since we can now either choose First Blood (for higher ST) or the new talent (for higher burst AOE).
I take a real issue with First Blood & Demonic becoming baseline for separate reasons.
- First Blood
- The idea that I have to use my rotational AOE button on CD for Single Target damage optimization is silly at best and horrid idea at worse.
- Instead First Blood should compete with talents that affect our other damage abilities for single target. Options Like modifying Chaos Strike cost less/refund more/strike again etc. for same cost and modifying Eye Beam or Glaive Throw to be more rotational on single target as without our builder and talents, we only have Chaos Strike fitting that role.
- Demonic
- This needs to stay a talent for a number of reasons. First if it becomes baseline, expect to see a huge nerf as you will always be able to be in a short duration demon form. That means it becomes less special and watered down. Second, it would then punish you if your not using eye beam on CD if your trying to play a different type of spec play type via something like bloodlet or something else entirely.
- I think its a fun play style to min/max your situation to achieve the best up time with demonic. However, I don’t think that is what everyone should be doing and doing it they shall if it becomes baseline. It pigeon holes everyone into that mindset/play style. We should all want more choice, not less.
Ideally there should be 3 types of DPS talent builds.
- Demonic
- Hybrid weaving of Agile/Demonic play
- Non-Demonic (Strictly using your quick agile abilities to get the job down and suppressing the inner demon entire time)
Though balancing/making it fun & appealing to play is the challenge. But I think that would be the best direction for build types.
They did that in Antorus with Chaos Cleave, and the rotation was abysmally dull, even with Demonic Appetite to give us at least something to watch. We need a short-CD ability to liven up the rotation. It doesn’t have to be Blade Dance (though I do love the animation of the ability), but we need something to fill that niche. A baseline rotation that has 1 generator, 1 spender, and 2 30s CDs is not sufficient.
You’re already punished for not using it on CD, since it is higher DPCT than any of our other abilities (except Death Sweep with First Blood). It doesn’t matter whether you have Demonic or not, failing to use Eye Beam on CD is going to be a DPS loss regardless, unless you’re saving it for AoE within the next couple seconds (and that applies regardless of whether you have Demonic as well).
I also don’t see why it would need nerfed it moved baseline. It doesn’t alter how often we can enter the Meta form from it, and our baseline damage is easily balanced with or without it.
You’re never going to get away from the “demonic” abilities, tbh. Eye Beam is part of the single target rotation regardless, Chaos Nova has a demon form animation, and Meta is still our primary DPS cooldown. Demon Hunters are demonic skirmishers, and there’s no getting away from that. Trying to avoid it is like trying to avoid shapeshifting on a druid, or trying to avoid stealth on a rogue, or trying to avoid pets on a hunter. They are intrinsic themes of those classes, and while certain specs and builds can minimize their roles, you’re never going to completely avoid them without severely gimping yourself.
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