Making a lot of assumptions there. Part of the problem of M+ is M+ Pug Players thinking they were hot stuff and then finding out the hard way they still suck because of how the old M+ padded difficulty to an absurd degree.
That delve loot makes M+ brackets useless. M+ has the gear, the upgrades, and the iO score that most Pug stars use to invite people, not just ilvl.
And again.
My point is, people always tried to find means to overgear content.
Heroic Raiders will get Heroic Gear and not go to Mythic. Instead, they go to Normal or remain at Heroic.
Mythic + want Mythic gear to do keys that reward them Heroic gear. Not push +10.
The loop you spoke is right, but it doesnt change that people seek gear to trivialize content. Not to engage harder content.
Engaging harder ones will always be optional.
Seems I have forgotten a lot related to Horrific visions, could be trauma! 
Delves have the same thing though. Keys.
I’m not insulting you, and I’m not calling you a moron because you have a different opinion than me. I’m pointing out that you are a moron because you… are. You are low-functioning and can’t grasp fairly rudimentary logic. It’s incredibly relevant to the discussion specifically because you don’t just have a difference of an opinion, but rather an opinion stemming from incredible ignorance.
I’m respect other points of view if they are based in reality and a common understanding of basic facts, but you are the equivalent of a flat-earther.
I just can’t with the ridiculousness lol.
How could we forget that negative traits exist with you here to remind us Joshak?
Keys aren’t required to enter delves.
if you haven’t figured it out, Lucrend is all about ilvl go up. Doesn’t even care about delves as a game mode.
Suggesting that calling someone a moron isn’t an insult because it’s just a “fact” is the pseudo-intellectual’s version of the YouTuber’s “It’s just a prank, bro!” lmao
Noticing speech patterns here.
Joshak who’s alt are you anyway?
That you’re a troll? I think we get it.
You are correct here. The issue is that social realities mean that if one type of content is too lucrative you are de facto required to do it to participate properly in your unrelated content. Delves are currently that outlier, and so need to be remedied.
And I’ve said this repeatedly now, but to reiterate the issue delves pose is an issue for delves themselves as much as the other pillars. If delves were the first endgame content that had ever been introduced I and others would still be talking about the massive balancing miss of the progression curve. Delves are an awesome concept and what we have right now is a very strong start, and I would like to see them refined so that they can be the best version of themselves that they can be.
The balancing blunder of delves has had a negative impact on the broader game, but that doesn’t mean recognizing that impact is an attack on delves themselves, or that remedying that impact is tantamount to sacrificing the health of delves for the sake of M+ and/or raiding. I want all three to be healthy and functional, and right now the thing standing in the way of that is delves being improperly tuned.
I would love if they made them appropriately difficult, though I think that’s not going to happen because it would require an absurd number of resources relative to the content produced. My next favorite choice would be to split up raiding, M+, and delve gear just like PvP gear, but that seems even less likely (as in snowball’s chance in hell unlikely) given it took more than a decade of begging to get PvP separated. What remains is to take advantage of the unique nature of delves to lower their progression range so that all three pillars retain their integrity simultaneously.
The outlier when it comes to difficulty vs reward is currently M+.
Heroic raid difficulty vs reward is roughly in line with delve difficulty vs reward. Edge goes to delves being slightly easier vs reward.
But the clear outlier is M+.
You do not need to be clearing the heroic raid to be getting hero track drops and vault. First four are enough for this comparison of loot/difficulty disparity.
As far as end of delve reward being champion track, normal is incredibly easy as well.
So now we’re back to my question of if you believe that stupid people don’t exist.
And to reference one of our earlier interactions, yes I’m trying to get you to state what you actually believe and then apply what you actually believe to things you’ve stated. No, it’s not a trap of any kind. It’s just how philosophical consistency works.
It’s definitely delves rofl. Like, we don’t even need to quibble over where the line is when we have such a blatantly problematic game mode where you jump straight to the max reward tier with pre-buff heroic ilvl and then just start cranking those out for the rest of the season.
This is one of those canary-in-the-coal-mine positions where it’s irrefutable that you aren’t arguing in good faith. If you can’t even concede that there is something emphatically wrong with what I just outlined, you aren’t worth engaging with further.
This is innacurate.
Else, you are comparing Ara Sac trinket with Candle.
Delves gear are nothing more than an ilvl rush, they have nothing optimized on them to the point that if you gear yourself through M+, you will have a better set and better means of upgrading.
This requirement is not really existent, a Sim would even tell you that.
This is incredibly disingenuous. You are talking about the two slots (as well as a uniquely overstatted trinket) where sometimes raw ilvl isn’t enough to make for an upgrade. For every single other slot, and for many trinkets, ilvl maketh man.
Yes you eventually replace some number or your delve items with better-optimized pieces of the same ilvl. That is an irrelevant factoid because the problem lies before that point.
And back to the “ilvl maketh man” point: it’s not just a truism when it comes to actual output, but triply so in a holistic sense because ilvl is part of your resume while stat optimization is not. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, social realities are actual realities where group content is concerned. Zero point zero people are going to look over your ilvl because you included “my stat optimization is sick bro” in your note.
And that is why you guys get garbage players in your group.
I am not going to pick both loot tables and compare, but to nearly every class BiS gear? Delves gear are rarely seen.
Also, that is questionable. Blackrock Raid came live, with bad rng protection and Heroic gear, which prople were concerned and not buying it, because they have no Mastery.
If ilvl was all that mattered, no one would care about that. But as we all know, ilvl is genuine irrelevant in most content. A better optimized gear set in the hands of a decent player, will outdps a bad gear set with high ilvl. Has always been like that.
Still, you could spam +2, and by the time you finish a set in, lets say, a week? You have enough materials to upgrade it to above 610+.
Delves provide 6, top, per week and 1 616 vault.
Anyone who would want to rush M+ could have done it, they just decided not to.