SV is pretty interesting in dungeons, the use of butchery and bombs, plus explosive shot and FoE makes the rotation different and interesting. The one truly interesting talent I have been experimenting with is stampede. When aimed correctly, it is indeed a huge burst to damage.
I think SV will do just fine in M+ this season, it will indeed be interesting to see how things shake out.
So you can add that, as well as at least the early half of WotLK because SV was popular then too.
We went over this in the last thread. Your continued avoidance of this point is notable. You’re ignoring it because it undermines your narrative.
In your post you linked some data from WoD which is from the default T17 page of WCL. I asked you what the date range was, you again ignored it. I don’t know whether you don’t know or you’re hiding it, but WCL by default shows the last 2 weeks. So for an old tier you’re looking at the very last 2 weeks of that tier; for T17 that’s in June 2015 right before HFC dropped. By then most Hunters had switched to BM and were getting their MM specs ready for 6.2 because a) BM’s T17 bonus was really good and b) we knew SV was about to be gutted by 6.2.
If you look at older data, i.e. set the time range to entire tier and then look spec by spec, you can see SV was very popular in early T17. In fact for a time it was the most played spec in the game. Even into BRF as BM took over you still had a decent amount of people playing SV.
So you started by saying ranged SV was consistently the least popular Hunter spec. After going through it we find:
In WotLK it was the most popular until late Ulduar/TOC, then it drops to 2nd place (still far ahead of BM though)
In Cata it was very popular the entire expansion. It was 2nd place in Firelands but otherwise its representation was very high
In MoP its representation was consistently high the entire expansion, either 2nd or 1st in representation the entire way through (most of the time 1st)
In WoD it started off high, slowed down to 2nd place as BRF went on, before plummeting to dead last in the game after 6.2’s nerfs
So in the time since it got Explosive Shot in WotLK to being made melee, an 8 year timespan out of the game’s 12 years as of Legion’s release, it was only significantly unpopular once and that was in 6.2 when they had already decided to make it melee and gutted the spec. As it turns out you’re far off base when you go around saying ranged SV was consistently the least popular Hunter spec.
Powerful argument right here, folks.
Lol? Comparing across roles is fallcious, and gneerally each tank and healer does see notable representation.
You yourself avoided the class until they made one of the specs melee. You didn’t like the class and its design. You only started liking SV once it significantly deviated from the core Hunter design. You are the thread’s example for what I’m talking about when I say melee SV was made for people who don’t like Hunters.
Sure, but there were far more ranged Survival players. You think this false but you think a lot of weird and wrong things.
No spec changes as frequently and drastically as SV. We are effectly on the 3rd major rework since and including Legion.
Survival in Legion had NO ranged weapon based attacks. Now it has more of them than melee weapon based attacks. The fact that they’re from the general tree doesn’t help your argument. It just highlights how the class is ranged at its core and SV is the odd one out.
In the example I outlined the rotation would be exactly the same. You would be using the same actions in the same priority. The ONLY difference would be the fact you’re using a ranged weapon and you’re free to do full DPS while outside of melee range.
Actually I can say with confidence that it would fare a lot better and see a lot more play. I can say this because ranged SV saw a lot of play.
Yubie is very wrong and being purpsefully misleading. Remember, he actually disagrees with you on melee SV’s popularity. He says correctly that melee SV is unpopular. His coping mechanism is arguing that ranged SV was just as unpopular so they didn’t make it worse, which is wrong.
Lol? It’s a ranged weapon attack. What a silly reply.
I’ve heard plenty of actual melee fans come here and complain the same: the actual melee parts of SV are lacking. The part where we disagree is they think that means Blizzard should expand the melee aspect while I think they should discard it.
In your priority it really is just Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Carve/Butchery. You pick one of each of those. Now Fury of the Eagle is back, but that’s a long CD (also a blatant ripoff of a Monk ability) and they tied in a gap closer mechanic to the other cooldown options. But the actual moment-to-moment melee gameplay is extremely lacking.
Wildfire Bomb is an extremely poor thematic fit for a melee spec. Again actual melee fans have noted this. On Trueshot Lodge the SV channel is more or less split into two factions: those who love WFB and want the spec to revolve more around it, and those who hate it and want to see it removed.
All the sidearm crossbow crap is also a pretty bad fit. It’s silly to be swinging a giant 2-hander around and all of a sudden putting it away, pulling out a janky little crossbow to fire off a poison dart, before putting it away and swinging around the 2-hander again. Like everything else in the spec it reeks of hasty bandaid-fixing.
If people wanted to see my spec removed, they got their wish granted, and then they fiercely defend against any sort of recompense or compromise, then yes I was targeted and they are my enemies. That’s just how that works. Downplaying the situation doesn’t make sense.
I’m right and you’re wrong.
You only want exotics because you’re conditioned to being handed other BM aspects like Spirit Bond. It’s not on. SV is already leeching way too much from BM. The whole ostensible point of making it melee in the first place was to avoid this sort of thing yet melee SV is doing it worse than ranged SV ever did. It exposes the whole business for the lie it always was.
These aren’t even remotely comparable examples.
For most specs in the game you can trace back all the way to classic and see how they reached their current state through iterative design each stage. You can’t do that with Survival. It abruptly cuts off at some point and throws everything away to be something entirely different. It has not worked out well.
We’re back to this circular reasoning.
Of course the people who like it still play it. If they didn’t like it they wouldn’t play it. The point is there aren’t a lot of people playing it.
It’s being rated all over the place as one of the worst DPS specs for M+ so good luck with that.
Give me one reason why are they better than any of us? Better than you me or other people? That is their opinion and just because there Is bunch of sheep’s that believe everything they say downs reman they are right
So nobody has actually done the M+ with the tuning passes, and adjustments, but its been said we are the worst by people who have not actually played the content as is.
Hmm…ok. Because…beta. Yeah. Ok.
I agree Shadow, it has been a lot of fun going through the expansion over the last couple days, really interested to see how World PvP goes with it as well.
It’s not, and the numbers shrink constantly due to people treating them like crap or want them outright banned.
BUT I DIDN’T DEMAND THEY CHANGE IT EITHER.
When they switched a Hunter ranged spec with melee options to a melee spec with Hunter ranged options, “core Hunter design” they still have their pet last I checked.
I don’t hate Hunter, I just prefer melee when given the option. But keep choking on that bogeyman.
You claim.
More insults, kay.
Not really? adding more stuff isn’t in and of itself a “major rework”. The playstyle has been consistent going from BFA > SL > DF.
Why are you lying? We had hatchet/axe toss, Dragonsfire grenade, Explosive Trap, unless you mean literally throwing their weapon, in case, harpoon.
No they don’t.
It does.
It’s core is being a Hunter.
Which is talking without thinking.
And you’re full of it.
“The designers suck and don’t know what they’re doing, but if they did this thing I want they are obviously intelligent and great at their job.”
Your bias and rose tinted shared are affecting you.
And you’re righteous and never wrong.
I never claimed it was the most popular, that’s another lie made up for your victimhood.
Why do you suddenly not trust data when your whole argument has hinged on that, and whatever sweet lovable can do no wrong streamers tell you?
Didn’t argue with what I said.
Everyone wants more stuff, I want more stuff for Survival, I want more stuff for Windwalker, I want more stuff for Arms.
“It has a main spender like almost all DPS, therefore it only has 1 button!” just makes you look bad.
Cool, give us more stuff, give all the classes more stuff.
Your bias and lack of taste can prance off. Melee doesn’t mean they’re never allowed any reach or ranged abilities. Next you’re gonna claim charge and heroic throw aren’t Thematic for Warrior.
I doubt this. Not liking tier sets going all in on them sure, but not hating the ability in the first place.
I enjoy WFB but I don’t want it to be the spec’s main thing.
No it doesn’t it looks cools as hell.
I’m beggining to suspect your aesthetic tastes are just very bland.
“made a whole new model and animation” is the exact opposite of “hasty bandaid”
WHO WISHED THAT? I wasn’t playing in Legion. You are concocting enemies out to get you.
“I SUFFERED SO NOW YOU ALL MUST SUFFER WITH ME” just makes you sound sad and pathetic. Or a dungeon boss. Or a sad and pathetic dungeon boss.
You are a sad goblin.
Again, I wasn’t playing in Legion, stop making up this sitcom nemesis in the crap comic that is your life.
No, you just run on rage and spite.
You were talking about overhauls.
And if you actually did that you would see all the hunter melee abilities in the Survival spellbook/tree.
I just did.
And you’re wrong.
No you just don’t know how to have a conversation.
And again we disagree, not being the most played is not the same as everyone hates it.
Do tell seeing as how M+ isn’t available right now.
I understand the damage component, but that is not what you should be looking at.
Stampede now is listed or used in AOE builds, not single target. Its the snare and CRIT modifier for every enemy hit. So send stampede into a stack pack of mobs and watch the magic happen.
For SV Hunters, crit is a decent stat to use. Now combine this with explosive shot, and coordinated assault you have kill shot now citing on 3 targets with the power of ranger increasing that damage. Plus a built in snare to help out other range.
Look beyond the damage numbers. Stampede though on a 2 min CD can help with a difficult pack when it needs to die. The only real downside is you need your tank to coordinate where they will put the mobs. But this is true for any area effect spell as well. Having stampede go off and watching the tank move the mobs out of it is indeed vexing.
Their WoW experience is much greater both in quality and quantity. They’ve seen much more of the game than any of us have.
Besides, the point was that this isn’t just one person who you can dismiss as a hater. This is a common opinion. When you try to dismiss every person giving the take as non-credible it becomes apparent that it’s the denial doing the talking.
Most of them actually went out of their way to try to give melee SV a chance.
At some point a reasonable person figures that there’s no magic combination of design decisions that makes melee SV a good idea. It was just a bad idea, badly executed.
…yes because beta? The M+ content goes on the beta and people analyse and test each class to see their performance. How do you think Blizzard gets the feedback on what needs to be tuned and redesigned?
There’s not some secret cabal out there dedicated to bring SV down. Notice how when most specs are found to be sub par usually the players encourage and amplify the feedback in hopes of getting a fix. It’s ONLY Survival players that go into denial and circle the wagons.
Besides: the criticism isn’t just coming from a numerical point of view. Most of them say the playstyle is bad as well. That’s not something that gets fixed with 5% buffs.
If a cheater told you the sky is blue would you go to check that it wasn’t red?
It is fallacious, end of story. There’s an entirely different set of design priorities involved. They aren’t comparable.
The point is that they changed Survival to appeal to people like you: people who didn’t like Hunters to begin with. That was a losing bet.
DF represents a fairly major change to SV. Not as big as BFA, but it’s still a substantial difference. Not a good difference for most people, either.
Read it again. Ranged weapon. Bow, crossbow, gun.
Lmao all I have to do is look to the past where SV was a lot more well liked and widely played. I wonder what changed, hmm…
Is logging onto WotLK and seeing SV as a widely-enjoyed spec rose-tinted glasses?
The data agrees with me. I already explained why.
It literally does. Aimed Shot is a ranged weapon attack and Hunters are the ranged weapon class.
That wasn’t the argument. The argument was that only a small part of the spec actually necessitates melee weapons, and even then they’re the most generic and boring part.
It’s not just being ranged. It’s an explosive. It’s like the spec is a suicide bomber.
You’re the one who apparently can’t imagine a spec being interesting beyond being a physical melee spec.
It’s a generic crossbow attached to an animation lifted from Outlaw Rogue. Yes it reeks of a bandaid.
It also used ranged abilities from the very start.
Lacking a ranged weapon is unlike any pre-Legion iteration of SV.
You wouldn’t have threads like these all the time if it worked out well.
Being one of the least played is actually an indication that a lot of people hate it.
You know people play test this stuff on beta, right?
Do you think the spec’s design, which is widely disliked, has significantly changed since beta?
I’m not dismissing anything. SV is in bad state, but here is the thing about streamers. They flex in front of their audience. They grasp a message in chat and they will sound cool. For them as long as a class deals more damage and performs better then other classes, it’s straight up good class. So them telling people it’s about design can go down the drain. I took my time to see their videos , and in all honesty I don’t get the mindset of people who are watching them? Do they have anything better to do in life? Are they so desperate and incapable of doing something on their own, so they have to watch them? I don’t get them at all. They are different kind of breed that should be examined closely. They may be different species. This new generation is a mess
What kind of reply is this? It’s actually quite simple. The people watching them are WoW enthusiasts who want to know how their class is doing. There’s nothing weird about that.
They don’t just talk about numbers either. Marcelian, for example, ignores tuning entirely and focuses on gameplay. Survival’s gameplay is bad as well.
I said that as well that is bad recently, at least for me, and for some people is bad since legion. I understand perfectly that transition was not welcome. I just gave it a shot and liked it.
As for streamers and their audience, you call them enthusiastic people, but those people need help. Imagine looking up to someone who plays the same game as you do, and seeing that person as some profesional gamer or whatever? When I read comments on social media, the praise, how they make good videos, how they enjoy their content, I just ask my self what is that person doing in their life?
Some people even compare it to sports but again, some people, actually vast majority, needs a mental check to see what’s wrong with them. I know the names you mentioned I saw few of their “comments” and opinions and again I’m asking you and everyone else. Even if they play the game on addictive lvl , have all the “knowledge” what is preventing you or anyone else here to play what they wanna play or choose it’s own play style?
Brapples at it again, I see.
My only real complaint with Dragonflight surv once geared is that I hate picking between intimidation stun and knockback trap.
I also totally understand why they took it from me, considering the lethality of the combo near any ol’ cliff.
I’m curious why you’d need HE trap as Survival given that its focus is still “supposed” to be melee. Terrain considerations are a bit too niche; gravity cannot be a reliable substitute for WPvP performance(though it helps). Especially when people have mobility options to recover and gliders.
I play ranger + latent poison, so I spend a good bit of time kiting with serpent sting
because Dragonflight takes place in a continent full of cliffs, and many players don’t have the option to recover a knock, or a glider, or the reaction time necessary to recover from it, even if in a vacuum you imagine that they must.
I’m more concerned that you can’t imagine a use for a knockback in wpvp. We’re clearly built different.
Terrain considerations aren’t “niche” in wpvp, they’re the literal basis of it. There’s a reason I throw a turnip on the roof every time I bounce into the Stormwind auction house to kill someone.
P.S. knock someone off a cliff then harpoon to them and see what happens to their glider or parachute
