I do as Marks, but given melee I think it’s somewhat antithetical to use gap-openers. Now there could be a trick where you place HE BEHIND the target so it’ll bounce back TO you but that takes some skill. Speaking of skill, you also can’t let the knockback get clipped against an incline. I’ve had plenty of instances where HE trap failed to give me the best value in Elwynn(which isn’t perfectly flat). Trying to run away from a Hunter(even MSV) is just silly as Hunter has practically no DCD’s it can use offensively. And we can’t forget Harpoon…
Just go for the early Turtle, wait, and take your 144 or 172 seconds’ worth of time getting an easy win.
I meant in terms of letting gravity do the real DPS. It’s also moot now because you can just change your talents practically at any time on the fly.
Why is someone drastically less experienced in wpvp than me trying to give me advice on wpvp?
Forums are a funny place.
Consider for a moment there might be a skill gap if you can’t figure out how to make knockbacks dreadfully lethal. As I said, it was nerfed for a reason, although I will always miss my gravity splat wombo-combo.
Nowadays, it’s all about throwing a sticky warp grenade at someone before diving off the cliff yourself. :^)
TBH I don’t think they designed it like that to nerf SV. I think they did it because in Blizzard dev brain Intimidation is what BM and SV use for PvP while Explosive Trap is what MM uses for PvP so it’s fine to have them as mutually exclusive. Remember this is the same team that tried to put dodge chance as a talent on our class tree. They clearly don’t know the class too well.
They should just replace Binding Shackles with Explosive Trap so it’s no longer a choice node. It’s not like anyone will miss Binding Shackles.
Stunning then knocking back is nothing overpowered. Look at the wealth of crap being handed to other classes. Hunters, intentionally or not, are being conditioned to fight for stuff we had 10 years ago. In MoP we could spec into intimidation and glyph Explosive Trap to be a knockback with no damage (so no CC break) so we could use both anywhere we wanted. This was in a time when class capabilities across the board were generally more limited.
There’s Scatter Shot at least but since it breaks on damage you have to use it after they go flying which isn’t foolproof and when they get disoriented it actually stops their trajectory and makes them fall straight down which isn’t as good.
That’s actually very possible too given the reality of what the hunter class dev position is, but either way, it’s a big sigh of relief for the kinda folks who tended to trinket the harpoon-trap before the stun came out…
…which was strangely the majority of Demon Hunters who would otherwise not struggle against the play.
Something something “theoretically survive”
Fun fact: Harpoon stops dragons mid-air. It was also causing the target to DC a couple of days ago, but they fixed that pretty quickly.
Let me tell you something. As someone who played PvP and WPVP as SV hunter it’s good. It’s better in my opinion then MM and BM by a good scale. But that is the problem. I don’t want a pvp only spec. That is something devs need to understand. Stop balancing specs around pvp
Was excited to get back on my Hunter, haven’t done much with him (other than fishing) since Legion, where I ran survival. I’ve been hitting Shadowlands to get to 60, finally got a decent spear, switched over to survival and what a bloody disappointment.
When you play SV, you have to dismiss basic hunter mentality. You also have to dismiss melee mentality. SV is a mixture of the two. You need to keep in mind, I can shoot things “point blank”. I can move out and re-engage quickly.
For DF, talents that you would think would not help are actually good for the build. Ranger for example, helps quite a bit with our “range” talents. You would not think this type of talent should be in a melee build spec, but again remember, our spec is not quite all melee. Its melee with some ranged. If you ignore the range abilities, you are ignoring damage.
In the M0’s I have been running, I am starting to find a rhythm to the rotation and it is paying off. I have been ask a few times are you shooting as well? I thought SV was melee. My answer, “We are melee that sometimes shoot”.
I’m finding SV pretty fun in DF, and I said before, I think we will be ok in M+. Now lets bring some raids in and see how that goes.
You can use ranged abilities in melee range therefore there is little reason to spend any significant time at range in PvE… especially when you depend on Butchery, a strictly melee ability.
This is true and what I said. There are times you need to go out of melee range, some of the bosses on Mythic requires you to run out. Now of course you can shoot while your out of range, and Harpoon back into range.
The point I was making is ignoring skills like ranger, and explosive shot, along with serpent sting, may not be the best setup. The ranger talent help boost kill shot as well, and with CA redesign, its a boost to damage in the middle of a fight, not just at the end anymore.
As someone who has played the spec a lot of just feels clunky. You go from slicing enemies with mongoose to wiping out a tiny baby crossbow to throwing a bomb. It has no flow and feels really bad without haste.
If it was up to be they would turn SV into a all in bomber/trap class. Think the Saboteur from rift. It generated combo points by throwing bombs and then use different spenders for damage. They already have 3 bomb type abilities on wildfire bomb, then explosive trap. Maybe add back immolation trap, separate wildfire into two abilities one that gains combo and another that spends it. The harpoon already matches the trapper type play style, same with steel strap. I think that would be something actually unique and fun. Could even make a new weapon type like bolas or something.
The problem with that is placing the traps. If you play with Steel, you would already see how trying to place a trap WITHOUT a macro would be painful in a fight. Its doable, but not the best.
The crossbow or gun animation is for exp shot or viper sting if talented. You do not pull it out for bombs. The spec does feel better with haste involved, but honestly that is with most specs. Going all bombs and traps would be interesting, but I feel not that doable.
I think the “problem” with surv is wow player brain is super limited. Without getting into meme “class tier videos” surv is just different and thats okay. Not every class should be designed for everyone or to be the most popular. BM is the most popular spec in the game but by god is it so boring to me. But im not gonna knock it. Some stuff just isnt gonna mesh with everyone.
Arent you the big bad mythic raider here? Oh wait youve never played melee or had to preform a mechanic that wasnt spamming 1212121212 40 yards from the boss.
Another Warrior main coming to the Hunter forums and declaring everyone too stupid to appreciate SV
Having a niche spec isn’t inherently bad. Having a niche spec replace a popular spec is really bad. That means a lot of people got screwed over just so a small amount could have more fun. The implicit conclusion there is that the people in that small niche are somehow more valuable/less expendable than the broader playerbase, but seeing as how you sound like the guy from the Rick and Morty copypasta I’m guessing you probably fully agree with that.
really no different than a MM hunter complaining about sv. Besides didnt you say they were basically the same spec? So by your logic he should have a point.
You’re grasping at non-sequiturs, them saying something obvious/common sense does not help their credibility. The Sky is blue, Melee survival isn’t as universally hated as you think, and Preach cheated.
Irrelevant to that particular discussion as you were brining up size pools, Healers and Tanks have lower pools that shrink due to the stress and other players treating them like crap.
I’m not gonna apologize for existing so you need to get over that, how dare anyone who plays different classes and styles than you exist, boohoo.
I HAVE A SCREENSHOT FROM THE PLAYERS GUIDE FROM VANILLA, IT REFUTES EVERYTHING GOING FORWARD AND ALL MUST ADHRE TO IT FOR ALL TIME… you’re ridiculous.
Hunter designs in the nearly 20 years of existence is it has a pet and nature feel to it, using bows or guns or axes takes backseat to that.
Your proof is not absolute.
You can not use Classic as a justification for anything. What they cleared Naxx in like 2 hours or something?
I sill stab and blow stuff up and sic my pet on fools, again, ADDING stuff is not a rework.
What does that even mean then? Yes it doesn’t use ranged weapons in Legion cause it switched entirely to melee in Legion.|
Using your personal picked data and rose colored glasses sure.
No it’s you having no idea how to function in a disagreement since Wrath and Wrath Classic aren’t the same thing.
And you were wrong.
No they’re not. They have two specs that use ranged weapons. They’re the Nature class with pets and traps.
You can stew in your hatred over melee all you want but there’d be more uproar and rage over pets being removed than guns.
And you’re moving goalposts now.
And they have traps and the other two specs use guns… explosives make you 404?
… what is wrong with you.
Plenty of specs are interesting and look cool, I PERSONALLY enjoy melee and you take that as a personal attack you must avenge for some reason.
And your moving goalposts again, you probably complain about every single mount and npc not having a handcrafted rigging skeleton too.
Point is whipping out a hand crossbow to poison shot someone is neat, which current Survival doesn’t even need to do with certain talents. Kill Shot execution is still neat.
It’s not a non-sequitur. You struggle to understand that an opinion isn’t automatically bad because you don’t like the person giving it. This is the definition of the ad hominem fallacy.
??? Yes that means it’s not relevant to DPS specs. You’re disproving yourself here. It doesn’t make sense to compare representation of tank or healer specs to DPS specs.
I don’t have a problem with people playing different classes. I have a problem with people demanding classes they don’t play conform to their interests. I don’t go demanding a ranged spec for Warrior or Rogue because it’s not my place. If only Warriors and Rogues understood that it was never their place to demand to shoehorn an unwanted melee spec into the Hunter class.
The manual is explicit that ranged weapons come first and that’s how it was all the way up until Legion.
In fact the class is still to this day designed as if ranged weapons are the core. The icon is a ranged weapon, you start with only a ranged weapon at level 1, and many baseline and class tree elements are based on ranged weapons. They have to tack on an awkward animation-only crossbow to SV just so it makes any sense at all.
Making a petless Hunter involved adding a passive talented option to MM and SV in WoD. It made a minimal difference to the playstyle or aesthetic of either spec.
Making a melee Hunter involved completely removing and replacing a spec from the ground up to the point where nothing was recognisable from previous iterations.
Ranged weapon comes first. It has always been that way. Any argument that pets come first is delusional.
What does this have to do with class representation?
You can’t accuse other people of using non-sequiturs before dropping takes like this.
Newsflash: Survival was popular back in the actual WotLK as well. Here is some data from the time. Here is some data for Cata and MoP too in case you want to pretend it was just one patch in WotLK.
By this reductionist logic Legion SV was the same as BFA SV.
The talent tree design and tuning makes SV play very differently to how it did in BFA and SL.
Yes their original angle for SV was purely melee; no ranged weapon based attacks, just a couple of ranged capabilities. Just like any other melee spec.
Then in BFA they redesigned the spec and since then it got more and more ranged attacks, particularly attacks that use at least an animation-only ranged weapon.
They’ve already compromised towards ranged. They just need to do it further.
I didn’t come up with the data, lmao. It’s collected automatically by the likes of warcraftlogs and worldofwargraphs.
Prove it.
Did you miss the part where Lone Wolf is a thing?
There was substantially less controversy when they first added Lone Wolf. That actually proves my point that the ranged weapons are much more important.
Yeah crazy how someone might take it as an attack when their main spec is removed from the game…
How is this moving the goalpost? It sounds like you don’t understand what that actually means so you just throw it out there because you think it makes you sound intelligent.
Yes the sidearm crossbow reeks of bandaiding to make SV make sense as a Hunter spec. Your argument is that it couldn’t be bandaiding because of the work spent on the animation, which obviously isn’t true.
I don’t make the threads. I just post in them. It’s not like I have to be around for these threads to pop up.
Do you think all those youtubers said ranged SV was better because I told them to say it?
Usually those specs aren’t consistently near the bottom.
They really aren’t. People love this “it’s beta, things change” line but the hard fact is the late beta and early expansion are usually the same or very similar.
I’m just pointing out the repeating trope of above-it-all Warrior mains preaching on the Hunter forums about how Survival is too good for the class and Hunter design should apparently cater to people who don’t like Hunters.
Which no one is doing but you and gatekeeping and making stuff about everyone who doesn’t perfectly agree with you.
And I and no one else are demanding any ranged specs be turned into melee.
And there you go again fabricating villains for your victim complex, Blizz made that decision, I nor anyone else forced them to do that.
For the game on release in 2004
It’s been 18 years.
It’s a matter of playstle and aesthetics, not mechanics.
You are 100% wrong there.
Disagree, lots more people play Hunters to collect pets than because they have bows and guns (let’s be honest, no one really cares about crossbows).
This entire segment is a non-sequitur because you’re trying to use Classic as a replacement for history.
Where is this data from? Raiding? 1 sever? 1 Datacenter?
A playstyle being built on and expanded is not reductionist.
And you’re just being nitpicky here.
Still melee, lots of classes got more abilities with the talent overhaul.
And you picked the data you like from those sources, which trawled through specific things.
I’ve already pointed out the issues with you handpicking your data and ignoring other data from others.
It’s an option for 1 spec, I still see MM who use pets, and MM still go around collecting pets.
Lone Wolf didn’t permanently remove pets.
Again, LW is a talent you swap into, not a permanent change.
It’s crazy that you’ve held onto that hate for 6 years and treat EVERY melee person as personally behind it and going after you, you’re not some grungy action hero out for vengeance, you’re a nobody wallowing in their victim complex.
every time your complaint is countered you dodge with "well actually I meant [completely different thing] so your whole argument starts to look more and more in shambles.
I know words and I use them, same as you, shame most of yours are reserved for insults.
By this logic anything you don’t like is a bandaid no matter how much effort or result is produced. Not how that works.
I noticed.
Reverse, you think after your youtubers speak.
And yet they are now, on the logs you care so much about. You don’t get to pick and choose like that.
They are, as more people learn and figure stuff out, followed by tuning and hotfixes among other changes and revelations.
And again with making up a bogeyman for your need to be a victim to be avenged, no one is out to get you, no one is conspiring against you, you’re a nobody, same as the rest of us.
