As many have mentioned, the major sticking points with M+ is the pervasive MDI mindset infecting lower keys where your class is actually irrelevant to your success. That plus the nature of the timer and key depletion mechanic, heavily fosters a toxic and adversarial environment. Far worse than what happens in raids.
Blizz could solve a lot of the pain points by deleting the timer or key depletion but for some unknown reason they choose not to. I mean, if a group wants to spend 10 hours in a dungeon that is far too difficult for them and they die 500 times but eventually succeedâŠmaybe let them? Like, who really cares?
Totally agree. Itâs a super efficient way to gear a character.
They ought to remove the gear that comes from M+ and let the players, who genuinely enjoy the content and want to see how far they can push a key, continue to enjoy their M+ without muddying the water with silly gear levels.
People are going to be mad that someone âWASTEDâ their time. Its just how it is, the game is grindy, time consuming, and the adult population that have played the game for 18years donât have that amount of time IRL. Iâm not sure removing the timer is going to change the amount of time they have, or they felt was wasted by one person who didnât show up prepared.
People like that would get mad and bail regardless. Hence why the moment it even remotely appears youâre not gonna time the run, they usually leave straight away.
Iâm referring to outside the timer, in your hypothetical scenario. Those types of people who do not have time for people who want to take their time.
I get it. But in such a situation where a dungeon is taking too long, they can always bail. In the end, bailing because a dungeon is taking too long vs bailing because you feel you wonât time the run amounts to the same thing. However if the timer didnât exist, you wouldnât have as much rage if e.g. someone pulled an additional mob pack or two. Or if someone died a few times etc. It just eliminates a lot of sources of contention. Especially for newer tanks who donât know or care about the optimal routes. The additional 10-20min? It might add to the average run length I think is a small price to pay compared to the less toxic environment you get in return. Or so the theory goes.
Maybe. I mean raids donât have timers either, technically. Not to say they are the same time length, they arenât. But usually someone runs a dungeon because they are shorter, even without time constraints, and say you have to spend an hr at most in there, I canât see people wanting to hang around. People bail in raids constantly. For some reason iâd imagine it would turn into a queue simulator. There is no real loss other than lvl of key.
Lets say you burn a 15key, then end up with a 14, but you spent a lot of time getting a solid group to get that key to a 15 from a 12. There is a lot of time stamps to add up to get that result. If that key some how ends up dropping more, its just not going to go well, and itâll feel like youâve wasted your time each run. Even without a timer.
iâm not saying it will Absolutely be that 100% of the time, but I can definitely still see more selectivity in the activity, I donât think it will change much, if rewards were removed, I think participation drops to that of Torghast probably.
I disagree on this. I remember sitting and dying in heroic Botanica, took an entire Sunday afternoon, it took us 3 hours to complete it. And maybe because there were no addons, we were all sort of newbies. It wasnât easy at all for us. No way those dungeons took 15-30 mins. Not the heroics, I donât know if youâre talking about the pre-70 ones. Maybe you had raid gear so it was easier? But when those came out, they took some amount of skill and understanding of the mechanics as well as a decent amount of time commitment from everyone in the party. I enjoyed those times! It was so hard but it was fun as well.
Well, hereâs the thing right. It brings me back to my original point. Your raid team doesnât absolutely need to have mythic+ gear to complete the heroic raids, right. Are you saying that heroic raids cannot be completed without mythic+ gear?
You can still do ZM dailies/quests to get the gear for normals. Then do heroics and finally mythic raids as you gear progress. The mythic+ gives you an advantage. Supposing, we remove mythic+ as you say or the mythic+ gear doesnât work for raids. Then what would you do? Youâd progress slower because now you have no access to mythic+ gear. A lot of the raiders who are just piling on top of the content because they have the better gear to do it with will struggle and many wonât even be able to stay in the raids because they would be deemed impossible to carry.
So not only will taking away mythic+ gear access remove like a huge chunk of the current raiders who are doing heroic raids with better gear from mythics. Prevent them from having access to that content. It will also have a huge impact on the raiders in general because there will be a lack of those skilled enough to do it using only raid gear for normals, heroics and mythics. Maybe they will get through it with enough wipes and practice but how many people will stay around for those. How many will jump ships, how many will give up? And how many will come here to the forums and shout at bliz on why they listened to someone called Renwyk for proposing something like this.
I think that youâd just be making a lot of people miserable by not letting them use mythic+ gear for raids. Like I said, you donât need mythic+ gear to clear raids. Raid gear should be enough to clear raids. It does speed up the process of gearing. And. It gives you an edge, you either get the skill or you use the gear to make up for that lack of skill. Thatâs where the mythic+ gear fits in for most people, making up for that lack of skill. Just like the addons in general which make up for some lack of skill. Mythic+ gear is a reward to those who are willing to put in the extra effort to make up for their lack of skill and see more of the raid content. I see no harm in that.
Yes I hear you. And perhaps blizz should just delete the key depletion mechanic to solve that issue instead. Thereâs room for multiple solution here.
In the end, I view it as no different to Cata dungeons pre-nerf when they were current content. They were overtuned but people did them. Perhaps nowadays itâs different but everyone has an anecdote. I still remember spending like 2 hours in one of the WotLk leveling dungeons just after the original ilvl squish in BfA. Blizz completely screwed up the scaling and suddenly trash packs were basically bosses. We managed to fight our way to the last boss but in the end couldnât defeat it due to the insane damage. Eventually we had to call it quits. But I got some bnet friends out of it and I remember that run. I donât remember any of my SL dungeon runs.
I can see that, dedication and commitment certainly can build memorable events and lasting friendships. Iâm thinking they need to re-consider how stats are weighed for each class, and re-do them to something easier to manage. I think that has a lot of contention behind it as well. If blizzard ever intends to revert M+ to former designs, I think they will need to redo the stats, as I donât think Mastery/Vers are great for balancing around, especially when the game is driven by Ilvl and achievements. People are less likely to participate in challenging content due to âtoxicâ behavior, or having some expectations. In a way its a really stratified way of excluding people who generally do not want to be disrespected.
Sure, I can see that but if the entire extent of someones enjoyment in a game is to get gear just for the sake of getting gear, I would argue that youâre missing the point of even playing. Its literally not gonna matter what Blizz does for people stuck in a miserable state of mind such as that.
I mean, how can anyone know they wonât like pineapple with their pizza if they donât try it!
OP, rather than ask for something to be taken from the game because you donât like it, how aboutâŠthis is a clever ideaâŠyou just donât do it. I donât much care for PvP, I dont get on and rant and say it should be removed.
Well, ok, some of it should be. But just little bits.
Because finding 4 other people, or joining someone elseâs key, is WAY easier/faster than trying to find 9+ for raiding. Completion rate of doing a M+ vs pug raid, WAY higher I would guess as well.
My personal experience, is there isnât much âtoxicityâ (this word gets thrown around so much, WTF does it even mean anymore?) if people know what is going on. If you join a +15, and donât know the boss mechanics, or what trash abilities need to be interrupted, well, people are going to be annoyed by that. Learning the ropes should be a +0-+2 task, not on the time of a group trying to time a +15 or higher.
Not inviting someone playing a non-meta class, waiting for a shammy healer for BL, and not inviting people with low/no rating/score for a dungeon I would not consider toxic, just personal playstyles.
That being said, Iâm not a huge fan of timed runs myself, I could do without a timer and possibly have some other metric, e-sports are a joke.
I have nothing but free time and I wouldnât stay in a dungeon for 1 hour with OR without a timer. People thinking removing the timer will automagically make people willing to stay in a dungeon that is taking longer than it should are lying to themselves.
I have stated many times that M+ is the worst aspect of WoW and the fact they put a focus on it is why this game has gone down hill.
M+ isnât content! Itâs an activity that very few are into so it would be great if Blizz would stop trying to funnel us in there! Then also make some actual compelling content, quest and stories in the open world. Thought it was World of Warcraft not Instanced Warcraft.
If I could never do another M+ again Iâd be happy! Itâs easily the worst part of this game and should be removed with that Toxic Great Vault!! This game has no place for extensive chore list for RNG gear.
The game was better when we had normal and heroic dungeons. You completed them got gear and were âFINISHEDâ with dungeons. Key word is finished! I want to do the dungeons complete them and be finished with them for the expansion. I donât want to keep doing dungeons which is the smallest aspect of the game.
I want to spend less than 1% of my play time in Dungeons. Donât get me wrong itâs fine to do them a few times to see them get gear or help out a guildy but then you want to be finished with them.
Remove weekly RNG loot just have Justice/Valor and Honor/Conquest vendors that offer BiS gear. Then have raid tokens for Tier sets vendor.
If you want to keep M+ fine⊠but have it be a competition mode that doesnât reward ANY gear so we donât have to go in there. Arena and M+ should be about Seasonal titles and Xmogs only! That way the playerbase can avoid them.
M+ is for the minority of the player base. So you are wrong. Blizz got the idea for M+ from D3 rifts which killed that game. I guess history repeats itself. M+ is just not a center point of Warcraft and it never will be so Blizz trying to do that has doomed this game. Players donât log into WoW and say ohhh I canât wait to do M+
Again M+ isnât content so the Devs got to stop treating it like it is. What else you got for the players.
As I type this there there are about ~3.6 million characters that have done M+ this season. Letâs say everyone that does M+ does it on 3 alts (I think this is grossly overexaggerated, but I want to prove how stupid your comment is, so I will give you the edge).
So 1.2 million people doing mythic+. How many subscribers do you think WoW actually has for 1.2 million to be a minority?
You are forgetting something. M+ is forced content. People donât want to be in there but they got to do their chore list for gear. That is why M+ is a toxic cess pool. The players are compelled to go in there, donât want to be there and learn as little about mechanics or trying to help as possible.
M+ isnât content and forcing players to participate in it week after week when they donât want to has come to a point of players just not wanting to play this game anymore.
Please stop the madness!! Removed weekly chore list for RNG loot just have Vendors. Just let people take valor to a Vendor and buy a BiS item without any silly M+ rating.
Most people donât want to do the activity of M+ so if you could just have it be about Seasonal competition for the few that are into it that would be great. Then design some content for the majority of the playerbase!
