Run and gun low level dungeons/Garbage tank. The first part speaks for itself, nothing better than dropping DND when you THINK or hit a spot where the tank SHOULD post up but they don’t. Bringing me to the second part. I just got out of a dungeon where the tank literally ran all the mobs out of my DND cleave, all the boonkin aoe/silences and most of the time the ret pally’s aoe. DPS shouldn’t be punished because garbage tanks are garbage. The potential to lose the key is enough in that department.
One of the reasons why this is the lowest played DPS class in M+ is that to execute well your tank can’t be a mental invalid. Heres the crap part. You Blizzard, cater to mental invalids. So as long as we’re ‘streamlining’ classes maybe fix one of the things that makes DK the least desired melee in M+ if not the least desired. Namely the positional damage requirements.
I am not asking for a massive overhaul to build DND cleave into our other abilities. I like DND cleave, I just hate how DND itself functions. It does not fit todays game model where it did before in a game with far slower pulls, no timer and far far far better tanks.
If they are that intent on keeping it an aura would be one of the best solutions. I’ll never stop advocating for it to be removed as a mechanic altogether though and have our actual AoE abilities pick up the slack accordingly.
Having to aim and place major aoe sucks for sll classes. It sucked so bad for pally they got it built in to concentrate. So yes i agree with you ahould be an aura or give us something similar to pally with festering strike or something applying it.
I’ve been saying this very thing for 10 years, it’s ridiculous to make it such an important part of either specs rotation, then to limit it’s total drop count by talent and give it an unreasonably long CD as well as cost runes.
It should be an aura or an drop on use procc like skill like consecration became for Ret.
Dk’s despite these changes have still an obnoxious amount of ramp up to hit those numbers every other class does in a couple skills. Complexity doesn’t equal good.
It’s especially obnoxious in raids and M+ because tanks will pull a group but either due to NPC mechanics, affixes, or just weird fidgety tanking behavior they move entire group well out of DnD and your ability to contribute comes down to eating the CD or dropping another DnD just to take advantage of what’s left of your CDs you popped for the big pull. It’s asinine.
I love your idea. High keys are kinda ok, but low keys it is just ooff. You have no idea how many times I told the tanks “dude that’s my dnd, not an ability of mobs” and they either say “I didnt know that” or “I dont care”
it is just frustrating.
DPS will always be punished if they are with a bad tank or healer but D&D Cleave is for sure an outlier in how much it can be affected by a lack of coordination or a skill issue on the tanks part and its a problem.
Gotta disagree with that. IMO tanks as a group are overall more skilled than any other period in the game.
There are a lot of factors to why a lot of people think tanks suck now.
Most of the good ones get grabbed by friends as soon as they log on.
The dungeons being more complex than they have ever been makes the skill gap between tanks much more apparent.
New tanks have so much more to learn to be considered adequate that they don’t even know what they don’t know and look stupid when they are starting out.
A lot of DPS players are trying to tank because it gets you in keys faster and they have no idea how to be considerate of your DPS to maximize overall performance instead of just trying to do big damage on their own.
I think you don’t realize how much that is on Blizzard’s head and not the player base. Over complexity doesn’t equal good and fun all the time. WoW over the years has had harder and easier content and some stuff in the middle. The poor design philosophy that hampers the player base as a whole is this competitive E-sport crap that’s infected the minds of the devs, because they’re forced to come up with endlessly pointless revenue streams while hurting the overall health of the game. Speaking from a game dev perspective, I’ve seen it all the time happen to once successful titles where they keep spreading their interests thinner and thinner.
There should be little cross over with PVP and PVE. If you’re going to maintain PVP in a largely PVE game, then the mechanics need to hotswap their behaviors the moment the player engages in that behavior.
E-Sports like M Dungeon competitions needs to be a separate animal from what the majority of the playerbase is doing. Different setups different stressors, point period. Anyways there’s way too much to parse to even begin to unpack what’s actually wrong because it’s not just one thing.
Class requirements are very specific when it comes to classes that can tank, so not everyone can just pick it up, and you’re right. You have DPS wanting to get keys done just taking up tanking because otherwise they don’t get keys done. Most of them only do just enough to get through it.
But like I said, there are ways to mitigate these human problems. Making overly high commitment skills be lease heavy because of the nature of the game, again, complexity doesn’t always equal good. Sometimes you need to just streamline some mechanics to make stuff work better. And the old heads like myself who’ve been playing since the beginning might have a conniption because ZOMG TOO EASY NOW WAH WAH, they can go play Vanilla if they don’t like it.
Most classes have way too many skills, stuff can be paired down and more class specific flavor can be rolled into existing keystone skill components and abilities. The game is old, the player base is old and whiny, and more is being demanded of an old horse.
Again, there’s a lot of mess to think about. The problem is each new expansion with random mechanics added ontop of the spaghetti salad Blizz is throwing together to mask bigger issues doesn’t make that easier to address. I know because I heard the whispers through the Dev vine. Microsoft’s acquisition and Acti/ Blizz/ Microsoft subsequent massive culling didn’t help things either. It’s a mess.
To that point, Diseases should just behave as a proc for Death and Decay that hangs around on any enemies with the Diseases on them. Something to that effect. And it’s duration should be 2/3rds the duration of the diseases, that way it encourages reapplication but also doesn’t limit the activation of the skill to a weird talent count or a long CD, if Blizz insists on making it a key rotation skill.
Is this supposed to be a response to what I said? I am so confused.
If it is I think you’ve assigned a whole lot of positions and ideas to me and what I said that aren’t there.
I said tanks will always affect how well dps do. Because its a team based game and even just good grouping will do that, but dnd makes that issue worse. After that is said tanks are actually on average higher skill than they have ever been and then listed some reason why I think people have the view of tanks being worse.
I actively said DND cleave is a problem and made an observation. Nothing about what I said was about complexity being good or anything to do with the effects content creators have on the game.
This is bad tanking. NPC mechanics and affixes are not that great of a threat to being in DnD. The higher you go in M+ level the easier it is to make full use out of cleaving strikes. Watched a +21 with a DW Obliteration Frost DK and everyone rarely moved during combat.
Most people do not do minimal movement but instead think you have to run 20 yards when you just have to move 2 to sidestep something.
Time after time I watch high M+ runs which are more punishing, there is minimal movement. Minimal movement increases group dps. DK’s are able to stay in their DnD, mobs stay in Consecration, in rain of fire, in blizzard, in earthquake.
Its bad tanks in lower M+ levels. Better tanks know what to do.
I agree, and anyone that really plays this game, especially in pugs, knows that you can’t expect a tank to pull and do minimal movement all the time.
There are too many variables, yes his skill as a tank is one of them, but so as his ilvl, his healer etc.
You can’t watch MDI or even great tank players doing higher keys and expect that behavior to be the norm.
So DnD needs to be an aura imo, cause would “shield us” from that.
Sure the last DnD changes help mitigate this issue, but I still think is not there yet…
We could be happier
Giving classes tuning based around what 5% of the population or less are doing is why rogue/dk have the lowest player numbers expac in and out. The team doesn’t do that for any other class/spec.
Large scale catering to the MDI/W 1st crowd has had some really negative connotations for the game. Exceptions aren’t the rule they merely prove it. The reason it’s so much more rewarding and fun to play my rogue/spriest in pve is that I don’t need to rely on the tanks positioning as much, on the priest not at all.
If you only play DK you won’t know this but no other ranged or melee have the sort of handicap that DK has with current DND.
