Omg blizz if this is true I’m the happiest Chappy alive
The patch notes say under the sub heading
-Shadow Dance moved from the Class talent tree to Subtlety talent tree
Does this mean outlaw and sin don’t get it. Omg please please please. Been asking this since the new talents were released
Looks to be that way. I am more interested now in how will sin and outlaw play. Especially outlaw since gameplay revolves around stealth for crackshot burst windows.
Outlaw gets 2x vanish which should be affected by Restless Blades. From outlaws perspective it should be a buff on subterfuge uptime and it really shouldn’t change it’s play style at all.
It’s actually a net nerf, you only reduce the cooldown on one vanish at a time. So normally when shadowdance would come back up, you’re losing 6 seconds of stealth time.
Don’t worry they’re also nerfing crackshot, UHUH, Adrenaline Rush so the fun gameplay we know now can cater to the ridiculous hero talents being put into place. It’d be nice if they just enhanced the current gameplay that people actually enjoy with the hero talents, but I guess that’s a tall order when you have to make 2 hero talent trees viable for 3 different specs - they’ll just homogenize us more so that there’s not distinct advantages to one spec vs. another in the new hero talents.
Yeah this is what worries me. At least for me outlaw has never been this fun. So I hope the gameplay does not change too much
Yeah you’re right, I just tested it with feint charges and that’s definitely how it works.
That’s really unfortunate, especially with all the other nerfs.
Outlaw can opt for 2nd charge of vanish. How good it is remains to be seen.
On paper a 2nd vanish is not as good as dance, because restless blades only reduces the cd of one charge. However, having a 2nd charge of ability always makes it better due to the versitility it provides.
We also know that due to how quick outlaw can reset vanish, currently it is very common for dance to be held since vanish is off cd. So a second charge of vanish may just as well be a dance equivalent.
Hard to know for sure until players test and sim, considering there were other nerfs to crackshot kit as well
I personally think without dance, Adren uptime overall will be lower.
I think that’s fine concidering hero talents will affect buff uptime
None of the hero talents affect vanish, ar or stealth uptime. Losing dance is just bad for the current design.
I really hope this isn’t their solution to people wanting non stealth based builds - just nerfing the fun stealth builds that the rest of us like.
As it stands right now, we’re losing a bunch of stuff and getting the current builds gutted, but gaining absolutely nothing. Which is…not a fun experience going into a new expansion. What about any of these changes or the hero trees are getting us excited to play rogue?
I just hope there’s more coming. There has to be. Right?
Do we still get two dance charges?
As Subtlety yes as a talent. Quite a few nodes swapped around, feels better on alpha (whole heartedly).
Hard to say and I do see your point. I dunno Outlaw obviously but please describe how things changed for you guys and girls as I genuinely would like to know (not instigating but looking to understand from a trusted source that isn’t going to meme).
Current Outlaw rotates coming out of stealth → Vanish → Shadow Dance to maintain stealth buff through extended stealth windows from other talents in order to shoot as many Between the Eyes as they can. Vanish is affected by Restless Blades, so you can get 18-24 seconds of stealth pretty reliably if you’re getting the right RtB buffs and hitting crackshot procs.
Moving to double vanish effectively kills the ability to rotate effectively between these, since stacks for abilities don’t cooldown independently. Effectively, in Raid double vanish will be useful once an encounter and in M+ it’ll be fairly rare to have 2 charges of vanish after the first use. The Rogue forums have indicated that people with Alpha are still getting 80~ Adrenaline Rush uptime, but the consistency of it will suffer.
It’s not the only change that is signaling the end of the current playstyle for Outlaw, and there haven’t been notes on what the vision is so some of us (me) are dooming.
Makes sense, thank you for clarifying a bit .
Losing dance is a good thing. The current design sucks. To be fair all outlaw designs have been god awful since day dot.
Meanwhile other classes are getting their tree’s upgraded rather than gutted. And spec tree’s fixed like aoe vs single target while our’s get worse.
Remember this is the same dev that had rogues come out of df beta with the worst tree’s that didn’t even follow the new no 3 point talents and greater connections rules that all other trees were made to follow in beta.
Then they claimed the rogue rework was coming for 2 patches then finally did in 10.2…
Tldr: Don’t hope on anything
tbh when they added SH to assa and outlaw all of us were asking for it to be removed and exclusive to sub
we got used to it and figured it’s great. of course we did
just like we’re gonna live without it
It is a nerf and it is obvious that some people do not play the game if they think it is a buff
Basically yes but I am pretty sure more changes are to follow with the trees because they are incomplete if you look at it as the only changes.
Yes we are Rogues we will adapt but it would help if the tree changes were done before TWW beta ends.
