Should level 51-60s lacking gear and AFKing really have a 30% win rate against ranking Horde PVPers?
Does that make sense?
Your presumption that the horde team is composed of nothing but rank 10+ horde pvp elites and the alliance team is nothing but non-60 leveling never-pvp noobs is hyperbolic at best and cringe-inducingly inaccurate.
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No competitive game today would allow such an abyssal difference in win rate like there is right now with AV. It is NOT a player problem. A player problem would be at worst a 60/40, and even that would be immediately hot fixed in any other game. Unfortunately this is classic though, so no changes.
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I didn’t make this assumption, and I certainly didn’t claim this.
The horde make up in terms of gear/skill/level doesn’t differ that wildly to the alliance ones, for reasons I already explained. Rankers have no use for AV other than a one-off queue because they had it queued while they were doing other BGs.
Does it hurt to ride the fence this hard? Seems like you can’t commit to any position out of fear of looking stupid because you have no idea what you’re talking about…
What is your issue? Do you speak to people in real life like this?
I do not claim access to any amount of data that would give me an accurate view as to what issues may or may not exist.
The only information I have access to is my personal experiences and that which I read on the forums, as well as third party data collection sources such as wowclassicpopulation.com and ironforge.pro.
I do not presume that my view is more accurate than someone else’s, but I also do not assume that anyone else’s is more accurate than mine.
If you have issue with my way of looking at things, and being skeptical of unsupported claims, then that’s on you. Improve your interpersonal skills, unless you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing, in which case, there is nothing of value to be gained from conversation with you, for others.
If you lack the data to give any opinion worthy of merit, then don’t even participate in the discussion, simple. Of course, you’re free to do so anyway, but don’t get all offended when people call you out for looking like a fool.
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“worthy of merit” deemed by who? I certainly have access to as much data as anyone else on these forums, unless of course there are other data sources that I am unaware of, in which case, it would be great if you or others would share such sources.
I’m not offended, I’m sort of unsure how to react. The things you are claiming are unsupported by anything you could link to that I have stated, and they have nothing to do with our conversation.
0% is 0%. I don’t need to link you some kind of spreadsheet for good measure. 0 is 0. It’s a basic number that anyone can understand.
Let’s compare my 0% to your stated 80%. Given a 20% margin of error to my numbers, that’s still an unbelievably abhorrent discrepancy in the AV experience between Alliance and Horde. Simple as that. You don’t need additional data. That’s assuming we’re both being truthful, which for arguments sake, can’t we just?
You’re not being skeptical, you’re walking around a room as a blind man telling people with working eyes what they’re seeing.
Certainly.
Then the win/loss ratio seems abysmal.
OK.
You are fabricating analogies that do not fit reality. That is unkind, and apparently shows a lack of willingness to engage in any meaningful conversation.
You must not have queued much in TBC and WotLK.
You’re either trying to think up a solution to reduce the horde win rate, or you’re wasting everyone’s time. We don’t care any more about the REASONS for it, we just want it [more] balanced. The end.
Have to admit, it doesn’t seem like you are actually trying to understand it.
Many many Alliance players will decide to grind exalted in AV, and play 40+ games in a row without a win. I’m in a very large guild (3 full raid teams, and we all have alts) and we’ve seen this time and again.
Does Alliance win an Alterac Valley? Yes, occasionally. Very low occurence unless you consider some outlying factor. (Recently I heard of a server all queue’ing at the same time, and mostly getting into the game together, simply because of the low pool of Alliance players. That would be considered an outlier and definitely not the norm.)
What matters (to most players) about AV (or any game, including checkers) is enjoyment. The win rates for Alliance players is flat-out abyssmal. Literally every single player queueing for AV as alliance believes the next game is a loss, and instead will try to focus on another factor regarding their own goals (maximing personal rep, or farming some solo HKs as a stealthy, etc)
I suspect (and much of this is anecdotal, although not untrue) that the real reason so very few Alliance will play the battleground is truly because of the scorched-earth playstyle that the Horde overwhelming uses. Alliance wouldn’t mind if they lost some, but not all. Alliance wouldn’t even mind if a game took 30, 40, or 60 minutes, if they could have some sort of enjoyment while inside the battleground (whether it be kills, or small dogfights at each tower, or sneakily trying to ninja-cap graveyards, etc)
Very very little of this is possible in the modern AV. Even once Alliance has been pushed back to their starting graveyard and/or bridge (which will 99% result in an eventual loss by Alliance) even then most Horde teams will send players south to weed out any potential Alliance trying to kill a LT for bonus honor, or trying to cap a graveyard etc.
Playing AV as Alliance (while not a stealthy) is truly one of the most soul-crushing aspects that I have ever seen in my 16 years of playing WoW. So most players avoid it, leading to the frustratingly long queues on Horde side.
(Well, vast majority of pvp-oriented players went Horde so there will always be somewhat longer queues for them. But they shouldn’t be this long.)
Many many Alliance games and players on their way to exalted can reasonably expect 250-300 rep per game. They will need 42,000 rep in total to hit exalted. (That’s a lot of losses incoming for that player.)
Hope this helps.
Based on what?
Literally what can you quote from this thread that supports that it doesn’t seem like I am trying to understand it?
Yeah, that’s a lot. So, let’s assume 250 rep per Alliance game. That would mean 168 games, which is something like 84 hours, assuming 30 minute games, and instant queues.
This could only be true if this was literally the only post you’ve ever read regarding the enjoyment and/or playstyles employed in the modern Classic Wow.
So i’d assume that you must be attempting to gather the data thru the forums, Redditors, and/or content creators. Which points to the disingenous statement that I first quoted in this post.
To which you repled:
Again, either you are now or very soon queueing as Alliance into AV, or you are not really attempting to gather data. Blizzard will not release official win-loss ratios, game times etc. (At least, they never have to my knowledge, which would give me confidence when making this statement.)
[I am not trying to start an argument with you, and I’ve enjoyed our posts and responses in other threads. However, when reading this thread as a whole I also started to believe that you were employing a ‘head in the sand’ approach to Zipzo’s very reasonable posts.
Language is a tricky thing; heavily nuanced and complicated. It’s possible that my intent, or Zipzo’s, or yours was misread and/or misconstrued.]
For someone who cares a lot about parses you’re not very good at math 
Let’s say we’re generous and say an ally wins 1 game per month queueing once a day. Av queue is 5min and av itself is an hour. So that’s 1win/31h= 0.03win/h (that’s being very generous mind you)
Same horde queues once a day too. Let’s say 1h30 queue 1h match. So 31x2.5 = 77.5h and let’s pretend he played in the same games as the other guy so he lost one. 30/77.5 0.39 win/h
In what world is 0.03 close to 0.39? And that’s vastly overestimating alliance wins here.
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I have not empirically collected the data, but from my own experience and the anecdotal experience of my friends and guildies, getting even 15 wins in those 168 games would be considered above average as Alliance. (Yes, i once had a streak where I got 6 wins in a single week. I actually thought things were improving.)
At the bare minimum. I believe there is an extra honor bonus for any game that takes 30mins or longer, and the Horde know it and will definitely stall a game in order to receive it. Time and again I’ve seen a losing AV where the horde (even after capturing all objectives) will just wait and farm Alliance players at the starting cave while waiting to guarantee the game goes past 30 minutes.
If the Alliance are very determined, and actually try to play as a group and refuse to give up, games can easily surpass 50 mins and beyond.
They aren’t instant anymore-- at least not in the sense that the word “instant” implies. Back when Blizz changed AV queueing to remove the game number that you were entering, very soon after they artificially institued a small wait of 3-5 minutes for alliance players, while (we assume) they jumbled the players queueing in an attempt to make sure that groups couldn’t just ‘all queue at the same time.’
I hear that recently, the queue is slightly longer for Alliance as the game has trouble even fielding 40 players for the game, leading to 10 min queues. (Yes, that pales in comparison to Horde queues, just sayin.’)
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Posts on this forum seem to often be hyperbolic. If someone says 99% win rate, I take that with a grain of salt, especially considering how exaggerated phase 2 claims were.
If I were to take the claims as legitimate and accurate, then it may also be relevant to note battlegroups, which are no longer a thing, so that’s less noteworthy going forward.
I have made no attempts (nor claims) that I have data from an Alliance perspective. What precisely are you claiming is disingenuous about this?
I suspect that our experiences playing as Alliance or Horde give us very different perspectives, and that each other’s perspectives are not as obivious to each other as one might expect.
Suffice it to say, I was shocked to lose the first AV I queued into as Horde. Not everyone is going to have this experience. Even if Horde are winning 99% of games, it isn’t impossible for 1 person to experience losing games more than 1% of the time.
The reverse is also true. It’s possible for someone to have a worse or better win/loss ratio than the average. Indeed it would be improbable for everyone to have the same win/loss ratios.
Yes, that’s quite possible. It may also be a more sensitive issue for some than for others.
Thank you for pointing this out. I’ll keep it in mind.
No, the annoying thing is that you have no stake in this. You’re just meandering around the completely irrelevant tangential matters.
What alliance generally wants from AV : a somewhat more decent win rate.
You are either with us or against us.
If you are against us, provide a reasonable argument as to why you are. If you aren’t, well then there’s no discussion to be had here between you and any alliance member.