This would’ve made more sense given the lore, and kept that vaunted “morally grey” element… but I guess acknowledging this situation isn’t “poor, innocent Mag’har vs big bad Light Crusaders/Jihadis” wasn’t edgy enough for Blizz.
To me, this part is still devoid of some info or context in-game.
I consider this poor writing on their part, or at the very least badly executed given the lore I previously mentioned.
This is fascinating.
You are making up lore as you go… and you are so convinced that I would just believe you because you sound so confident?
There is no record of what you claim here. The Ironforge dwarves built Bael Modan. Jaina and theramore were not involved anyway. I double checked the wikis just to be sure. There is nothing of what you claim… why are you lying? This is so wierd.
They are literally telling us there is a titan facility down there and are digging out artifacts.
Yes, Ironforge dwarves who joined Jaina back in Warcraft, they wouldn’t even know about Kalimdor if not for her!
Artifacts are not resources.
Provide evidence.
You have zero credibility with me.
I have caught you lying several times now
In wow titan artifacts have the potential to be powerful magical objects.
That is a resource.
These aren’t some roman pottery that we might find in RL.
Provide evidence it was built by authority of Magni, because a quick checks says there is not any lore on who’s order Bael Modan was created by. Although the only reason the dwarves are even in Kalimdor is thanks to Jaina, and without her support Bael Modan could not exist. Again, Jaina had dwarves follow her, it makes sense they decided to make a home as well in Kalimdor!
Except there wasn’t anything truly magical about said place, in fact the only thing the dwarves got were cursed objects. And even then I don’t think that classifies as a resource.
The fact that the dwarves are from the explorer’s league is proof they are from Ironforge and infact the wiki calls them Dwarves from ironforge.
They are there to dig up artifacts of titans in the barrens.
The lore is clear. For some obscure reason your psyche can’t fathom Alliance not acting like they were all saints.
The intent of the dwarves was to dig up the land for Titan artifacts. How successful their operation was is not really relevant. If the Dwarves had not known there were no titan artifacts down there they would have never built Bael Modan.
I don’t understand why are so fixated on giving the Alliance a pass here?
The Dwarves saw titan stuff sticking out of the ground.
Ironforge sent dwarves there and built a fortress that overlooks the excavation.
And they pushed out the native tauren out of their lands because they were in the way.
Anyway… the lore and the facts speak for themselves… you seem to be in complete denial and no matter what reality stares at you in the face you still grasp at straws trying to excuse it or explain it away.
I have tried several times now to show the facts but it seems you will insist on continuing this delusion. Well feel free to be wrong on the internet.
Everyone there came from Ironforge, obviously they would be ironforge dwarves. Having said that back when The RPG were a thing Bael Modan was suppose to a “second home” for the dwarves. Everyone who went with Jaina was effectively trying to create a new home for themselves in Kalimdor.
Oh I am not denying what happened in that place was a blood mess. What I am arguing with you is how much they would have to have permission from Jaina to setup camp. That without Theramore agreeing to them building their base(or at least tacit support from them) Bael Modan would not last very long.
Because like it or not everyone in pre-vanilla was trying to conquer new land and no one had true borders. The taurens were nomadic in nature and even the orcs were driving quillboar out left and right while the taurens drove out the centaurs(understanable in their case). Kalimdor was the wild west and everyone was out to get land for themselves.
I have told you the information. In time you will come to accept it.
And I have told you my piece. And no, we wont see eye to eye on this particular lore detail.
Well thats exactly right. Your piece of it is pure headcanon that you cannot substantiate with any backup or evidence.
You are asking me to disregard actual written lore in favor of your skewed interpretation of it.
You are the one creating headcanon out of thin air. Jaina brought people from every Alliance race. Without her support Bael Modan cannot exist/would easily be destroyed by the Horde.
Heck, the events of Bael Modan was not even due to territory(the taurens seemed ok with the dwarves being there) it was the use of explosives that caused them to become aggressive.
That Awkward moment when all of those races were involved in a faction war in one way or another.
It is still a bad comparison. We don’t see a Cold War actually being waged. We see conventional war. We see invasions of territory. Border skirmishes. We don’t see any spying and espionage other than an off-the-cuff mention that it is taking place, and nothing ever comes of it. We don’t see an arms race. We see the development of Azerite Technology AFTER Total War is declared. But never in a Cold War Scenario.
Show. Don’t tell.
Spec Ops during Open War. Not in a Cold War scenario. You can’t call it a Cold War when a conventional War is taking place. Then it is not a Cold War.
The tuskkar never joined in any faction war. Aside from the blue(and that was after Garrosh stole an artifact from them) none of the flights have participated willingly(unless you count Wrathion but he was playing both side). And the Steamweedle goblins were neutral and selling to both sides.
This is not a game about spying, even though we have a rogue class. However it is canon both sides were spying on each other. And both sides were developing new weapons for their respective sides.
As per Rise of the Horde both sides were spying on each other.
Op… There it is.
Then don’t call it a Cold War.
As I said, an off-the-cuff mention that it was happening. With nothing to show of it. So, practically a useless detail, hardly something we can make the entire premise of an entire conflict out of.
It would have been cool if we HAD done so, instead of BFA. It would have been more interesting, but that is not what happened.
That what? Again not all the dragons participated. The tuskarr never joined the factions wars at all(which would make your statement about all the races join the faction war just wrong so don’t play gotcha with me) and the goblins were neutral. Like alot of nations of the cold war who did play both sides.
The Cold War was more then just spying and ultimately a cold war is what was happening from Vanilla-Wrath. I am not the only one using this term.
Why is the detail useless? It is for WORLD BUILDING purposes and no, that particular line could not be used for any major gameplay development in WoW but that doesnt mean world building lore like that is useless.
I think you just want a different game from warcraft can offer.
Not all Orcs and Humans have either. But Tuskarr had, as your “Aside” pointed out for me.
Goblins are not neutral. Steamwheel have always supported the Horde over the Alliance. Supplying the Horde with Shredders to expediate deforestation in Ashenvale.
Spying, espionage, the development of military technology, and the funding of freedom fighting/terrorist organizations.
But never a conventional War. Never a shooting war between the powers. We never see that kind of restraint from the Alliance and Horde. Thus, it is not a Cold War. It is a conventional War.
Even in Vanilla-Wrath, the factions fought each other openly.
Because it is pointless. It is a detail that in no way serves the broader narrative.
Okay, they are “Spying”?
What did they learn? What were they trying to learn? What did they do with the information? How did they avoid detection? Did they have Horde informants? Or was it just some gnome standing on a mountain with a telescope?
These details matter. And when there is no detail at all, then it is useless to us.
I think you have poor imagination and fail to recognize what Warcraft can be.
Also think you don’t actually know what a Cold War is.
Which furthers the point, not ever major faction was participating in the war.
Also, the Steamweedle were neutral. We literally buy ammo from some of them and Kelsey was trying to keep them neutral.
Although the armistice between the mighty Horde and the noble Alliance has held, tensions between the two factions continue to mount as worldwide conflicts draw the two sides closer to all-out war. Fighting has erupted in the strategic battlegrounds of Alterac Valley, Warsong Gulch, and Arathi Basin, and more recently in Eastern Plaguelands and Silithus.
There you go. The faction were not at war and were in a state of armistice and while fighting did erupt it was still not a full blown war.
And I think you fail to realize what WoW is and what the layman version of a cold war refers to.
Again, why not go to wowpedia and correct the article that says the faction was in cold war. Or better yet, ask the story forums/general forums if they think Vanilla-Wrath was a cold war or not.
No it doesn’t… The point is that races can belong to multiple factions. You can’t point at a single faction and make a sweeping statement about the race entire.
Tell that to any veteran of the 2nd War.
There was still violent hostility in which the two factions frequently engaged in violent combat with each other. While the Alliance and Horde might not have been at war. Silverwing and Warsong surely were. Frostwolf and Ironforge surely were. Stromgarde and the Forsaken surely were. Bael’modan and the Stonespire Tauren surely were. Kul Tiras and the Horde surely were. The Forsaken and the Kaldorei surely were when the Forsaken were corrupting Ashenvale with Blight.
That is not a cold war, a Cold War is defined by measures that fall of short of that.
I’ve been playing Warcraft games since 1995, I know what it is. But if you are satisfied with the inadequacy of a layman, that is on you, my guy. I rather draw comparisons that are actually relevant.
So find me lore the Tuskarr did join the faction war. As for sweeping statements, you are the one who said “we’ve slaughter them all” when it we have never done such a thing.
They were(emphasis past tense) part of the Horde, left then became neutral. Come on this is basic lore.
Two factions, sending forces to aid a third party faction fight a proxy war on their behalf sounds as cold war to me as it gets.
You think you are the only veteran Warcraft player here? Been playing Warcraft since Warcraft 2. Also, the layman comparison is quite relevant especially that is what people generally talk about when they talk about the cold war. They dont care about all the intricacies of it and general don’t refer to it when they talk about it.
I don’t think they can, but think they need to do a story about both factions doing some political/spiritual self-discovery at some point in the near future.
The Alliance need to shed their unrealistic purity and get a little more ‘dirty’, probably by adding internal squabbles not just between the genuinely good-intentioned people who merely have disagreements but adding in genuinely corrupt or at least inflexible of intolerant people. A Twin Lannister type who can consistently, calmly, logically argue that the Alliance can only ever have true safety and security by genociding 100% of the Horde down to the last man, woman, and child. Charles Dance voice: “Ideals sound nice, but they’re things only the most secure people can afford to have. Everyone else needs to do whatever they can merely to stay alive. Sometimes, that means doing what those perched high on top of their ivory towers would call ‘evil’.”
The Horde meanwhile, has the more obvious problems of being too violent and schizo. The new council needs to sit down and really at length decide what is and isn’t ‘honorable’, and how much they need to commit to that. Admit that as dangerous as the world genuinely is/can be, that their constant war-footing is unnecessarily antagonistic, creating more enemies than it halts. Admit that any legitimate old grievances it has with the Alliance are massively overshadowed by the legitimate NEW grievances the Alliance has with them. That it needs reform, and might split apart into small nations that could easily be destroyed if they can’t find a compelling reason for it’s disparate races can’t hang together.