Vol’jin gave his life for the Horde and Azeroth as a whole, don’t know what you’re talking about. Now Daelin Proudmoore on the other hand… he died because he let sheer bloodlust overtake him, rather then attending to the needs of his nation.
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Stonespire Tribe, wiped out by the Alliance circa classic.
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Daelin
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Died in a 1v4 against Rexxar, Rokhan, Chen, and Thrall.
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Remembered as a proud patriot and beloved father by both Kul Tiras and the Alliance (there was a statue of Daelin in Stormwind Keep’s gallery in Vanilla). The Kul Tirans loved him so much that they pulled out of the Alliance, accusing them of leaving Daelin to die.
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Kul Tirans named many important places after him, like Daelin’s Gate in Tiragarde Sound (one of the three sea-gates of the island-nation) and Fort Daelin in Stormsong Valley (the strongest Kul Tiran bastion in the region);
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He has a massive statue right next to Proudmoore Keep and Unity Square, aka the capitol of Kul Tiras.
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According to Metzen, Daelin was a lawful good guy who loved his wife and would never cheat on her;
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Daelin’s children are all thriving in different ways. Jaina is now the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras and a beloved hero after saving Boralus from destruction. Tandred continues to lead the Kul Tiran fleet, the mightiest fleet in the world, boldly and proudly. Derek, while undead, has made a name for himself in the Forsaken, quickly rising through its ranks as the Champion of the Pallid Lady, a member of the ruling Desolate Council.
Vol’jin
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Died to some random mob.
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No one really cares about him.
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Is he a Loa? Idk, Blizzard certainly doesn’t care.
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Did you know that Vol’jin is supposed to have children? Blizzard cares so little that they kind of forgot.
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The most forgettable and memed Warchief in existence, was Warchief for like 1 month.
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The Darkspears can’t build statues so where’s Vol’jin’s statue? Oh right, he doesn’t have one.
Where is it called a “genocide”?
Not interested in fan-fiction.
Yes yes, I’m aware of all of this. Doesn’t change the fact he let sheer bloodlust overtake rational thinking. He died for nothing; the Horde still stand strong, having proven hm wrong by the depositions of Sylvanas and Garrosh, as well as their valiant efforts in saving the world (and the universe itself) time and time again. Daelin died killing a bunch of orcs, while Thrall saved the world by killing Deathwing. Though, gasp! You posted worthless fanfiction again!
Vol’jin
He died to fel poisoning, Fel being one of the most deadly powers in the Warcraft Universe.
You clearly do.
He is. Play Shadowlands recently?
Whoa, a mob in Stranglethorn and quest text isn’t remembered? Whoa, what a catastrophic and unforgivable tragedy.
Sylvanas and Garrosh fight for the title of most memed Warchief, and forgettable? Considering I’ve repeatedly seen players ask for his return, clearly not forgettable.
Who says the Darkspear can’t build statues? Other then you, of course. Anyone at Blizzard backing up on that one?
Put this at the beginning so that I can stop reading sooner.
“Who says the Darkspear can’t build statues?”
Idk… take a look at Sen’jin village… I don’t think they can build a statue (or even know how to anyway). 
Again, where’s the proof?
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My bad, I forgot you aren’t interested in honest discussion and are here to make the Alliance playerbase look bad.
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Where is it called “genocide”?
It’s fairly simple and straight-forward question. Do you have something to hide?
The fact that they live in literal mud-huts.
No, I just do not wish to share them.
I will save us the dance and outright say, I think you are looking for reasons to excuse the 500 because you assumed that I was using veiled words to implicate Orcs as the perpetrators. And since I suspected that you would attempt to shield the Orcs from blame in every instance(this truly is an assumption, and possibly a reach), I pointed out the excerpts that I thought were relevant if that were the case.
Even if you are more intelligent and slightly less belligerent than others of your ilk, I still view you stereotypically as a Horde apologist. I do not apologize for this assumption, though I acknowledge I could be really REALLY wrong.
Very well. You are correct that I am heavily biased. Perhaps extremely so.
I do not view those species as people, but as mildly intelligent monsters. Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and even Trolls are people. But not the three you spoke of. Their eradication is no different to me than destroying mindless Undead or eldritch abominations.
My apologies, I meant to maintain a zero context scenario throughout, even when asking the broader question about what excuse could there be for such actions.
I don’t believe such numbers and data exist in the canon, but I believe the majority of the Horde at this time was made up of adult Orcs. Furthermore, I believe a significant number of those adult Orcs were participants in either or both the First and Second Wars.
I also do not believe that Daelin’s campaign was born purely out of a desire for revenge, and that a greater good would have been achieved had it been successful, regardless of Daelin’s personal feelings on the matter.
Honestly his intent means less to me than what he set out to achieve in practical terms. I also do not consider the Orcs’ intent when they butchered millions(this seemingly inflated number comes from the measurements of the Path of Glory) of Draenei and Humans. Especially the women and children. The intent matters less than the deed to me in most cases even.
I despise this mentality. Perhaps I am too pragmatic in my views. It reminds me of those stupid shows where the good guy doesn’t kill the horrific, murderous villain because he doesn’t want to ‘stoop to their level’ or some such nonsense.
NO. The fastest, most efficient, most merciful route to eliminate threats is to destroy their source. It is, in some cases, more moral to do so as well. To cherish the lives and well-being of your own people, to me, is a moral matter. Not that I’d demand the oppression or suffering of others in order to benefit my own, no matter the cost. I’m not that cutthroat. However, I do believe that overt threats to the lives and well-being of my people DEMANDS even extreme responses to eliminate the threat.
Do you hold the Orcs to the same standard? Are they as reprehensible as Daelin in your eyes?
They don’t live in mud-huts… I mean, I get what you’re saying here and you might not even be that far off the mark. But does this tangent really further the discussion on whether the Grand Admiral of the Alliance Navy was correct in his efforts or not?
Whether Daelin was “morally” correct or not is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that, for all his flaws, Daelin still left behind a beloved legacy, with both Kul Tiras and the Alliance respecting him.
And for all his flaws, Daelin was an important war hero from the Second War. He fought the Hode at Zul’dare and won a decisive victory at Crestfall. He spent the inter-war period patrolling the high seas, and remained a firm supporter of the Alliance. Even in the Third War, one of his motivating reasons for journeying across the high seas was to find out her daughter’s whereabouts.
The morality of Daelin’s actions is of no relevance.
What you propose is not an interesting discussion at all. Why do you care if Daelin was a good guy? Daelin was a politician, and there’s yet to be a politician who is also a good guy. This stuff is not interesting.
What is interesting is seeing how Daelin’s flawed actions in the videogame and his antagonistic role coexist with his in-universe legacy of a beloved leader and father/husband. That is morally grey.
That is a point I made earlier as well, but with regard to intent. Oh, I see your edit now.
Ah, I see what you’re going for. Very well, I’ll not get in your way.
You can’t “get in my way”, all I reported are facts. You can’t disagree.
Does Daelin not have a giant statue of him right next to the Kul Tiran Capitol Hill?
Daelin left behind a beloved legacy. That is a fact.
At first I took umbrage at the tone I imagined you having when you said this. But I think I’m starting to better understand you now.
Yes he did.
Why is it that I am the only one who brought up Daelin’s loved legacy, 450 posts into this thread?
Why did no one else here mention that Daelin’s actions still earned him a good reputation in-universe? (except for Anduin’s weird comment in BfA comparing him to Arthas of all people LOL)
Cause no one else cares
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Individually? Depends on the orc in question. Someone like Koak for instance? No, not particularly. Garrosh Hellscream and Warlord Zaela? Yes, and then some. -Generally?- For a direct comparison (the generation of orcs that fought in the First and Second Wars and Daelin, Second War veterancy) Yes, and then some. The biggest difference between… Daelin Proudmoore and Eitrigg (again, second war veterancy, most relevant comparison I’d suspect) is that Daelin’s dead. Eitrigg isn’t.
Simply put, what Eitrigg and those that fought alongside him in the ranks of the Old Horde did is unforgivable. They regret what they did, that’s very based but all the rampaging murder and demonic sacrifices… Yeah, bucked up. Their regret doesn’t change that. They’ve certainly done some good stuff since then, for instance Eitrigg fighting under the Argent Crusade in WoTLK and fighting against the Burning Legion as a member of the Valarjar, but if the Old Horde soldiers and commanders had done what they did on Draenor and Azeroth to Earth, I’d call for the executions of every last one of them with the knowledge I would have from them at the time, ignoring what the New Horde has done with all the helping in saving the world. (big green monsters rampaged across my world and nearly drove everything to extinction) No slavery, not alive but in poor conditions, just executions. Actually no, I’d interrogate their leaders and commanders to figure out wtf they were doing, where they came from and how I can prevent more from coming in and THEN execute them. What I would not do is call for the executions of any Orc that had not done what the soldiers in the Old Horde had done.
That is a fair response, thank you.
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I’ll keep it a buck. I realize I can’t say anything because I’ve drank the faction tribalism juice before, but pushing it aside to look at the story from an actual objective sense – the narrative paints Daelin as indeed having done something wrong; the attempted genocide and dismantlement of the New Horde. I think that’s just there, irrefutable; if he was a good guy or could be stopped from what he was trying to do by reason or by force until surrender, he would have either done so on his own or listened to Thrall and Jaina. One could argue that ‘uhm he’s based actually’ but at the end of the day; the story paints him as the bad guy in Founding of Durotar.
YET. Ignoring what the Old Horde had done to the rest of the human kingdoms to focus on what it did to Daelin personally (read: attacks on Kul Tiras), his son died to the orcs, as did many of his countrymen. That is a tragedy I would not wish on even the people I hate most – no parent should have to outlive their child. It’s an understandable motive, but its still an attempted genocide / dismantling of a faction, that at the time of WarCraft III: The Frozen Throne had not posed a serious threat to the humans (Grom did attack the humans unprovoked, but was punished by Thrall and after Thrall worked with Jaina to save Grom, there was no aggression upon Theramore until Daelin came along to the point where they actively worked together in Ashenvale.)
Daelin of course, had no reason to just immediately know what we knew because we played Reign of Chaos that the New Horde worked with the Alliance Expedition & Night Elves to save Hyjal from Archimonde, but he chose to simply not listen, and actually listen to Jaina and carry on with what he saw in the Second War in mind.
TL;DR: Understandable & cool motive, but still murder.
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Hell following WC3, none of the Original WC1, WC2 Horde leaders are either alive, or part of Thralls new Horde
Gul’dan? Killed by the very powers he sought to control (Died: WC2: ToD)
Cho’gall? Ran away to Silithus to officially join team Old God (Died: Cata)
Blackhand? Killed by Doomhammer during the First War (Died: WC1: O&H)
Grommash? Died defeating Mannaroth, ending the blood curse over himself and his people (Died: WC3: RoC)
Doomhammer? Died at the final internment camp, now called Hammerfall (Died: Lord of the Clans novel)
Kargath? Retreated to Draenor to serve Ner’zhul. After Draenor became Outland he served under Mag, then later Illidan (Died: TBC)
Rend and Maim Blackhand? Created the Dark Horde. Maim was killed by Dark Irons soon after. (Died: pre vanilla for Maim, vanilla for Rend)
Zul’jin? Felt the horde betrayed him after they abandoned the campaign on Silvermoon (Died: TBC)
Kilrogg? Died in a 1v1 to Danath Trollbane (Died: WC2: BtDP)
Zuluhed? Retreated to Draenor just before the battle of Grim Batol. Would later side with llidan (Died: TBC)
Ner’zhul? Became the Lich King after Kil’jaeden showed him… “mercy” (Died: Arthas novel)
Note that this list only includes those that were leaders of Orcish clans, or important allies. Sure some important high ranking members of those clans were still part of Thralls Horde, like Varok Saurfang but they were never the chieftains of their respective clans.