Well yea in order to be okay with massacres and genocides, you have to ignore that the other side is human too, you have to other them and remove all context, thats all this guy has done.
Are the circumstances of the 500 armed beings really all that important in light of what they are/have done? What excuses such actions?
There’s all these calls for understanding and context and perspective, but only when certain preconceived notions are in place. Only when certain criteria are met. Fascinating.
Feral hogs are just animals, and not capable of evil. Only sentient sapients are capable of evil, and deserving of retribution, justice, and even punishment for committing acts of it.
Orcs are not human. Nor are Trolls, Tauren, Pandaren, Vulpera, or Goblins. Elves may be human, at least High Elves.
But they are PEOPLE. That’s an important distinction. One that I absolutely make. I wonder if you can apply that same standard to yourself when you consider the massacres and genocides(plural) committed by the Horde, the Orcs in particular. Are YOU okay with those actions because you don’t consider their victims ‘human’?
h ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/First_War
h ttps://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Second_War
I’m starting to wonder if you people know the lore as some of you say. I’ve only seen one poster here who embraces their faction’s past, and I respect that. It’s okay to play into the RP of your side. What is less okay is telling others they are immoral people for doing so.
For instance, if all Horde apologists were saying things like, “Yep, the Horde is the bad guys. It is what it is.” And NOT calling the Alliance “racist” oppressors while virtue signalling their victimhood, that’d be just fine. You don’t hear people who play Chaos, Necrons, Orks, or Drukhari whining about oppression or victimhood. Hell no, they play the bad guys and have fun with it. They don’t lecture(typically, I’m sure there are exceptions) Tau, Imperium, or Aeldari players for oppressing them.
Hmmm. This might be more tied to America’s culture war than I allowed myself to think… Well that’s not good.
No one here is blind to the first and second war, just no one here believes you get to damn the entire orcish race for the actions of single generation of em
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Oh okay. Just blind to the consequences then.
No one? You sure? The actions of a single generation? Wow. Crazy.
Im sure a few of you crazies do.
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You seem like the kinda guy who thinks Garithos did nothing wrong, and that the Scarlet Crusade were the good guys in all of their dealings.
What I inferred? Like “a band of 500 armed beings” indiscriminately razing towns most likely being directed somehow? Please, tell me what you think that inference says about me.
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, is it? I never tried to excuse those 500 armed beings, I said I’d try to determine the aggressors intentions, if they’re not just the start of a bigger conflict. Fact is, capturing as many of them as possible and trying to determine their intentions is exactly what the Alliance did, but I suppose since I’m not explicitly team blue my idea couldn’t possible have merit.
Sounds like you’re inferring a good bit here. Anything of note?
I’m curious, what’s your opinion on all of humanity moving into the Eastern Kingdoms, displacing whatever natives, and claiming territory as their own? Or the dwarves? The elves?
What if the 500 armed beings were acting in retaliation after the inhabitants of those towns just finished slaughtering the 500 armed beings homes first? Would that excuse it in your mind?
From a legal perspective, this would definitely be first degree murder, just for the record.
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Just wanna say… Some of you guys concern me at a deep level, sometimes.
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That’s why I included the mention of the timeskip. Because even if you don’t want to overlook the actual invading army (fair), the fact that innocents came along with them and were raised in bad conditions should at least allow some sympathy, and which forms the next generation’s playerbase.
Like it or not, the playable WoW horde actually was supposed to have the space to be heroic in its own way instead of just being the unchanging bad guys.
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Garithos was a jerk. The High Elves were jerks first, but he was pretty bad. However, he DID succeed in pushing the Scourge out of Tirisfal. Only when he came up against Dreadlords did things fall apart for him. And Sylvanas of course.
I believe the Scarlet Crusade are some of the worst written people/factions in the entire series. Tragic, sad, horrific, and infuriating. I hate the Scarlet Crusade. They are NOT the good guys.
I refuse. Also, I didn’t say they were indiscriminately razing towns, that is another inference you made. Fascinating. It’s like giving someone play-doh and seeing what they make from it.
Huh.
Uh huh… Interesting. No, you’re right, I fail at reading comprehension.
There it is. Now, tell me I’m wrong: You imagined the 500 were Orcs, and the people they were slaughtering were Humans or Draenei, didn’t you? Be honest!
If I’m NOT wrong, why would that be? Why would you make that assumption? Hmm.
Not really. Just never met a person who says, “Okay boomer.” that I didn’t hate. Unless it was said ironically? Could always be a first though.
Is this where I’m supposed to spout lines like ‘Manifest Destiny’ or ‘Divine Right’? I ain’t gonna. Also, what natives were in Tirisfal when humans showed up? The Elves had moved out to go up north, the Dwarves were content in the mountains, Khaz Modan, the Twilight Highlands, The Hinterlands, etc. Who was displaced?
You are adding context again! But this brings up the very question Daelin Proudmoore asked Thrall.
“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.”
IS there atonement for genocides(plural)? Are there excuses? Can genocide be forgiven? If the answer is YES, then you have no moral standing to decry the call for the genocide of Horde species. If the answer is NO, then why would you ever defend the Horde? From an internet argument perspective of course.
Obviously playing a character in a faction is separate from taking a moral or ideological stance on the events in a video game and arguing such positions on the interwebz.
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No mate genocide is never justified not even counter genocide
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What makes this argument awkward is even when allowed to settle in Kalimdor, within a decade of peace they were killing Kaldorei and stealing their resources. There is not a lot going on to suggest they would not of just gone back to doing the same in the Eastern Kingdoms. WoD would seem to explicitly suggest they would of just formed back up and gone to war to exterminate humanity within a generation or two. No demons required.
So… what to do with them is… difficult. Part of me feels like pushing them back to Outland would of made sense. They can make do with the world they blew up.
Like I said earlier on, there are just varying degrees of terrible answers.
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The problem is people are assuming that forgiving something means it’s not immoral.
That’s wrong. For something to be forgiven, it has to be wrong or at least considered wrong.
Is genocide unforgivable? Since the genocides haven’t been successful, I think that’s a moot point in relation to WoW for now (elsewhere is better discussed elsewhere).
So the question so far becomes - is attempted genocide forgivable?
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Eh, I disagree with this. Garrosh is almost an exact 1;1 to Gul’dan in WoD as far as a narrative role is concerned. Gul’dan was vital in ensuring the Old Horde was formed alongside his master Kil’Jaeden, thanks to his manipulation of events to make it seem like the Draenei just up and genocided the Bladewind Clan on a whim, alongside general fearmongering and Kil’jaeden appearing as Ner’zhul’s dead wife.
In the AU Garrosh stops Gul’dan’s plans (read: demonically corrupting/enhancing the orcs) but nonetheless continues everything else (conquest) because Garrosh wanted to form the Iron Horde as one big middle finger to Azeroth. There’s no reason to suspect the orcs would go all imperialistic mode naturally (read: without the manipulation of Gul’dan or Garrosh), the only time they came as one before either came into play was when the Ogres were screwing with the Throne of the Elements and unleashing the red pox – and that wasn’t for the sake of mere conquest, that was just in self-defense.
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That remains to be seen.
You don’t have to exterminate every single person for a genocide to be successful. The Orc genocide against the Draenei was successful. The Orc genocide against the Kingdom of Stormwind was successful. The attempted genocide was against the Dwarves, Gnomes, Elves, and Humans of Lordaeron.
h ttps://www.britannica.com/topic/genocide
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It does not, there is no valid argument for genocide no matter who started what
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What an overused buzzword. I can’t believe Millennials were capable of turning such a serious word into a cheap buzzword, so disrespectful.
The only stated genocides in Warcraft history are the Genocide of the Draenei and the Burning of Teldrassil.
PERIOD.
P-E-R-I-O-D.
The Alliance never committed any “genocide”, such a sad and frankly-disrespectful fan-fiction.
Good thing the Alliance never committed any genocide then.
Well, in the Canon. I’m sure in your fan-fiction where the Alliance is the Galactic Empire and the Horde are the freedom fighters, the Alliance genocided something. But that is not the Canon. 
Buzzword buzzword wah wah wah, no one cares if stating facts makes you mad
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