Do refugees stop being refugees? If so, when?
A whataboutism.
Invasion is an act of war. And that’s exactly what the Orcs did. It is irrefutable.
See above.
Fixed that for ya.
I don’t see how that’s relevant.
IF we are going to classify the Orcs as refugees, which I disagree with strongly, they would have stopped being such when they started conquering the areas they arrived in.
This is silly. Daelin Proudmoore was absolutely right about the Horde, and the only reason it still exists is because it is an iconic player faction. The attempts at moralizing the position of genocidal aliens and savages is atrocious.
Play your characters however you wish, roleplay to your hearts content, but there is no MORAL justification to the Horde(unless you ascribe to moral relativism. Which is evil). If you’d just do away with the moralizing nonsense, your positions would be so much stronger, as would your arguments. Set aside the emotional arguments, whataboutisms(false equivocations), and the victim complex(Frankfurt School Oppressors and the Oppressed critical theory). You just sound ridiculous.
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Weird how the “orcs are evil invaders and objectively evil” types always seem to find the broken meat robots coming down from northrend and conquering far more thoroughly than the orcs ever did perfectly fine.
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Said broken meat robot’s ancestors were the only reason those place exist in the first place. Otherwise all of Azeroth would still be part of the Black Empire.
As for conquering well they only learned it from their brutal neighbors who kept attacking their settlements.
I honestly don’t ascribe to WoW Lore origins. I play along with it in game, but it is not exactly canonized in my brain as being “The Story” of WarCraft.
Also, if you have an argument to present, please do so.
::He would gently grasp your hand and lead you on the path to understanding.::
The orcs were enslaved by humanity and put in terrible living conditions.
These victims escaped their evil slavemaster overlords and fled to Kalimdor for refuge.
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I’m saying ranting about the evils of “moral relativism” while applying your standards purely on the race of the people doing the thing is heavily ironic
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That is a GROSS mischaracterization of the situation. They were not enslaved, in the sense we know enslavement. Nobody outside of Blackmoore had ‘house Orcs’ or Orc slave workers. Orcs were not used for labor nor any other use slaves are put to outside of Blackmoore’s gladiatorial crap.
They were genocidal monsters who were given the ‘mercy’ of being put in internment camps instead of being slaughtered wholesale. A grave mistake, and one I disagree with very much. To characterize their situation as ‘enslaved’ is disingenuous.
Let us look to all the projects the Orcs were used to work on! Oh wait… there are none. They didn’t work the fields, construct anything, fight the Human’s wars, nor even serve as ‘pleasure’ slaves. They were kept, wrongfully, safe and sound(relatively), fed and clothed, and contained. If anything, they’d qualify as POWs, Prisoners of War.
AND not all the Orcs were even captured. Grommash Hellscream and others continued to roam or hide as enemies of the Alliance. Recall the Orcs Arthas and Uther fought. The town that was raided, the people slaughtered with a number being taken for sacrifice. Or the Orcs Arthas, much later and in service to the Lich King, encountered in the mountains.
So the “The orcs were enslaved”! sob story really falls apart under ANY level of scrutiny. A more accurate portrayal of their flight to Kalimdor would be “Shaman leader of bloodthirsty murderers follows vision West” rather than any noble endeavor of slave emancipation.
Ridiculous.
I don’t think you understand what is being said. Moral relativism IS evil. And it has nothing to do with decrying the wicked deeds of a genocidal organization and species. That you attempt to smear me by claiming that I am applying my standards purely on the ‘race’ of the people doing the thing is preposterous and incorrect.
Should I turn around and claim you defend the evil deeds of the Horde purely out of ‘racial’ bias? All you’ve done is judge and insult me, without providing ANY argument to oppose what I have claimed here.
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No it isn’t.
And boy howdy did orc heritage quadrouple down on that all orcs in the internment camps were gladiators or slaves.
Humanity was wrong and evil when it performed slavery.
Cope.
Or seethe.
I don’t care which.
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There were, actually. Lorin Remka and Lord Agrovane did.
Edit:
The monument to Lothar was made by captive orcs. The Orcs were enslaved – that is irrefutable, it doesn’t matter in the slightest if it wasn’t a literal 1;1 to slavery is commonly depicted in IRL.
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Who?
Edit: You added alot.
It is. And you have not provided anything approximating a counter argument.
I don’t know what ‘orc heritage’ is. I certainly saw no such indication in the literature in game to support your position. Nor do the Orcs I’ve encountered in-game ever speak of wide-spread atrocities. Certainly nothing in my 1 to 60 experience on an Orc Shaman in Vanilla indicated these things happened anywhere outside of Durnholde.
I will not disagree with this statement. I will reiterate that the Orcs were not enslaved.
Ok.
“From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!”
h ttps://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Lorin_Remka
h ttps://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Lord_Agrovane
" Remka apparently enjoyed as much luxury as she was able while in command of her internment camp — even using a female orc slave named Greekik as one of her servants."
" Lord Agrovane is a human who bought Rehgar Earthfury as a gladiator from guards at an Alliance Internment Camp."
I stand corrected. Three people had Orc slaves/gladiators. This is not an indicator of wide-spread slavery, however.
Again I stand corrected. They used them to build a monument to Lothar. Sounds like a shaming/humiliation ritual to me.
I disagree.
Are POWs slaves? They are sometimes used for labor IRL, does that qualify them as slaves?
And since the blatantly obvious inference and false moral argument in favor of the Orcs utilizes IRL notions, I daresay it DOES matter if it resembles real life slavery. That’s the point trying to be shoved into this conversation by my opponents in this debate at every turn.
The Orcs didn’t deserve slavery, they didn’t deserve to be roughly handled and fed very little, they didn’t deserve the abuse and deprivation nor to be forced into servitude or gladiator roles.
They deserved to die. All of them. Swiftly, cleanly, and let their gods sort them out. Everything that has occurred since the end of the Second War has reinforced that idea. Argue why and how I’m wrong.
Edit: I just remembered a point I was going to make. Was there a system of Orc slavery in place in Azeroth? Was there an economy built on it? Were there laws governing or permitting it to occur? When the Orcs under Thrall escaped the internment camps, did the fields go untilled? Crops go unpicked? Did the servant positions in noble houses come open? Were beings other than Orcs being used in gladiator fights?
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::He would gently grasp your hand and lead you on the path to understanding.::
It’s the set of quests you can undertake as a level 50 orc that goes into orc heritage and earns you special racial armor.
I see you’ve taken the ‘cope’ option.
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Invasion implies that they knew about the Night Elves and intentionally attacked their lands. That is not how it is framed in WC3. Thrall orders the Warsong Clan to lumberjack duty as punishment. They had no idea that the Night Elves even existed.
Thrall: I can’t take that chance, Grom. Take your clan into the northern forest and build us a settlement. I’ll come and find you after we’ve reached the Oracle.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Cry_of_the_Warsong_(WC3_Orc)#Outro
Grom Hellscream: Damn Thrall for sending us away! He chooses to use his greatest warriors for manual labor? He’ll be lost without me.
Warsong Orc: Chieftain, there’s something strange about these woods. It’s too… quiet. Almost like we’re being watched.
Grom Hellscream: Are you all afraid of spirits now? There is nothing here but ancient trees and shadow.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Spirits_of_Ashenvale_(WC3_Orc)
Weirdly enough, that was Blackmoore’s plan with Thrall. Have him act as a puppet leader of the Orcs who would do his bidding. Even take over Lordaeron and proclaim himself as King.
Except the fact that Thrall was based off Moses from the Abrahamic texts. Remind me what Moses did again? I mean the prologue campaign of WC3 is literally called “Exodus of the Horde”.
While the Orcs in the camps were PoW’s, after the Dragonmaw Clans defeat at Grim Batol and the Dark Portal shut off from Draenors side, they are no longer Prisoners of War. Because the War (Second War) was now over.
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What were the Orcs not in Thrall’s group doing that caused him to be punished?
What did Grom’s Orcs do when they became aware of the Night Elves?
I can’t use links, so I suppose I just have to trust you know how to look up definitions of words like, invade, invasion.
Edit: Okay, these edits are getting silly. I suppose I should wait an hour before replying to something.
Act in self defense. The Night Elves attacked first. The Orcs had no knowledge they even existed.
I don’t see how that is relevant to whether or not the Orcs ‘invaded’ Ashenvale. I mean by your logic, Jaina and her forces also invaded Ashenvale after allying with Thralls Horde. Are you going to get all high and mighty over Jaina and the survivors of Lordaeron? The first mission of the Night Elf Campaign has you kill a paladin. Tyrande refuses to ally with Jaina & Thrall because of what Grom did to Cenarius (until Medivh slaps everyone around). Did Jaina and her forces do that? No? So why is Tyrande angry at them?
Anyone can use links. You just have to know how to trick the system.
Agreed, your edits are getting silly.
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Tbf it wasn’t all human kingdoms. IIRC the only Orc “labor camps” were set up in and around Alterac and Hillsbrad. So the humans that enslaved the Orcs have been part of the Horde for like two decades now lol. We even ran things for a few years 
oh my god someone pulled an uh actually over this
::he would gently hold your hand and lead you on the path to understanding.::
Justin was making wide broaching statements about entire races.
I was shoveling his spit back into his pile.
Every single argument made on the story forum is an “uh actually”
::he would gently put two fingers in his mouth and wet-willy your ear on the path to understanding::
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