Cursory glance looks like it was mostly for Nighfall hunters and mostly other niche scenarios. MB.
I didnât get lost about the lore part, but your assumptions, so we will play âthatâ game. As for a warrior, they can use all types of weapons, given warrior. So them being able to use a range weapon with basic abilities to a Hunter isnât breaking any lore, but like i wrote once again, that is your logic, and going by your logic by saying they only use shoot when in fact Hunters use more than 1 melee ability and was able to talent into it, kind of yeah. So, as much as you want to argue on it not being what it shouldnât, sadly it is. Putting Survival build into Marksman doesnât water down the spec, its call variety in ranged skills. Actually, the spec is already watered down and the fact that our talent tree is crap, so having players build more into different types of range abilities are fine. The spec can remain Marksman using old Survival Abilities it doesnât have to revolve around Aim Shot, but that is what the Dev have chosen the spec to be. Its like telling players hey, there are High Elfs called Blood Elfs, but players tend to keep asking for High Elfs. Enjoyed the back and forth âpeaceâ.
You seriously need to proof-read your posts and organise your points because this is mostly unintelligible.
Yes you did get lost on the lore part because you quoted a part where I specifically mentioned lore and then started talking about something that wasnât lore (and rehashing one of your earlier arguments).
Ranged weapons were pointless for Warriors and Rogues, period. Their use was limited to non-existent and basically only served to add a cumbersome requirement of a ranged stat-stick with predictably controversial results (see: Analogkid and the Roguebow). Any lore relevance for those classes is contrived at best. Ranged weapons for them have little place in terms of idenity and NO place in terms of mechanics.
You go on for a couple sentences on this argument. Iâm sure thereâs an argument there, Iâm also sure itâs a bad one like the rest of them, but at this point I am completely unable to understand what youâre trying to communicate in that part so maybe come back when youâve found the right words.
Yes, putting Survival into Marksmanship waters down both specs. By necessity.
- You need to actually find space for it in Marksman talents, which means removing Marksman-specific talent options. Thatâs the most direct and obvious part. Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, Lock and Load, Trap Mastery, Serpent Sting, and Serpent Spread are all things that would need to be represented along with all the interactions between them. This would inevitably restrict talent choices for both specs.
- By having what was formerly its own spec become a part of a different spec you completely preclude talent-specific options for the now-deleted spec, as well as any further evolution on that spec. Since the specs are no longer independent you canât make new stuff for one without affecting the other.
- Baseline elements of MM, namely Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot, directly conflict with SVâs playstyle identity. You would need to find a way to make them replaceable/non-baseline (negatively affects MM), or ignore them and make them required (negatively affects RSV).
There is no perfect solution. You are either going to end up with one, or BOTH specs ending up worse. Theyâve gone with the first option; ranged SV gets screwed, which was the obvious choice for them since they were clearly aligned against ranged SV in the first place by deleting the spec. Trying (and failing) to do it properly would also take immense time and effort. This is all for the sake of melee players having an entire spec all to themselves. There is no way to frame this other than royally screwing MM/RSV players for the sake of melee lovers who have numerous other options in the game already.
Ranged SV becoming part of MM was ALWAYS a farce put forward by people who either had minimal understanding of the Hunter class, hadnât put much thought into the issues associated with the plan, or a mixture of both. It might have worked with the Hunter class of Vanilla/BC when there was actually minimal difference between the specs, but not for the Hunter class of later expansions.
9 Likes
Agree with âwhoever is working on marksman doesnât have a clueâ
The development over the past few patches and most recent changes make it pretty obvious that they donât play the class
6 Likes
Bepples is still caught on the fact that In vanilla days if you werenât doing end game content you werenât actually playing the game. So he will never agree that hunter could be melee. Because to his epeen ego it was never possible. It most assuredly was. Quit trying to tell players how THEY played the game
1 Like
Currently Iâm fine with BM, although I liked it much better during Legion.
MM is not great. Itâs sort of close to being good, but falls short in several ways. The way the AoE works is particularly painful. I dislike the idea of buffing yourself with MultiShot to then use Aimed Shot as a cleave.
Iâm on the group that wonât play a melee spec no matter what. Iâve tried melee classes before and I donât like them.
If we are counting solo quest mobs, sure, by all means you could kill them while meleeing as a Hunter. You would still be significantly worse off because it wasnât the intended playstyle of the class. What a pointless detail. I donât care what novelty builds pop up when fighting Hogger. It was also possible to do that as a Warrior spamming Shoot if you overpowered the mob enough. That doesnât make ranged Warriors a valid and viable playstyle. I hope you can imagine how little justification this gives to the notion of entirely replacing an established ranged spec 12 years later.
I wonât tell people how they played the game when it comes to solo content. When it comes to group content, I can emphatically and confidently assure you that you werenât doing anything beyond the most trivial of content as a melee hunter because it Was. Not. Viable. End of discussion.
Prove me wrong by coming up with instances that, given equal skill and gear (a condition you people love to conveniently ignore in these discussions), a melee Hunter could beat a ranged Hunter.
4 Likes
See here is where you just donât understand bepples. the game wasnât about end game content for me back in vanilla. It was about exploring this huge world. and for all of that I was melee / range. I spent months just exploring. I donât need to try and prove to you what I did. But essentially every instance before wotlk was done in a melee / range fashion. So please just stop asking for proof. You just sound egotistical because just asking for proof you are telling someone no thatâs not how you played.
Well it was and I quite enjoyed it. And Iâm glad itâs back. SV is a popular spec still as melee and the devs seem to be testing the hybrid play style so Iâd imagine it will stay. so itâs time to hang up the bring range SV back. Itâs been far too long.
Vanilla Survival hunters were most definitely a ranged class. Entrapment, improved wingclip, and counterattack were all tools to get back to ranged. With that said TONS of people wanted a melee hunter back in Vanilla beta. Hunters were the last class implemented and they âdidnât have timeâ to make a melee spec for one. It was consistently asked about until Legion.
I love Survival. Melee specs in general are just more fun to me.
2 Likes
Forr sure. Vanilla had melee abilities only because of the dead zone.
3 Likes
My old talent tree had talents picked in more then just survival. All Iâm trying to say is that there were plenty of us who played there hunter (maybe wrong but who cares) as a melee hybrid. Didnât matter if auto shot didnât work. Didnât matter if I couldnât use most my kit. It was fun jumping in and fighting with my pet.
not everyone plays the game to push content and meters. The abilities were there and I used them.
In the end none of this matters cuz they ainât changing it.
I donât really care about SV one way or another. Do I miss the old SV? Absolutely. Thatâs not the problem. There are TWO ranged hunter specs in the dumpster thatâs the issue.
Ranged hunters have been the kings of kiting since the game was implemented. My biggest issue is that we are a complete pile of crap because of how poor our kiting abilities have become. Iâm totally fine with the nerfs they handed out to BM, and even MMâs damage would be okay IF either or both specs could kite. I donât expect to be able to kite melee around skillfully WHILE also having the ability to put out as much damage as they do. That wouldnât be a balanced game, and it wouldnât be fun to face as a melee class. What Iâm NOT okay with is being a melee target dummy while I flop around like a fish with NO way of kiting them AND doing far less damage while being completely controlled. That is ALSO not fun game play.
7 Likes
This is what i got a problem with, before you could kite melee as a hunter even 2-3 melee but if they connected to you, then you was toast. now there is so many ranged stuns and self heals that its next to impossible, its so bad that i have to take adapt in arena or else the war/dk or war/enhance or demon hunter is going to keep me perma stunned most the game. but in RBGs marksman is pretty good, you can peel with bursting shot for your heals from the melee paintrain an put out tons of damage with trickshot double tapped rapidfires. scatter is basically a cyclone. difference is in rbgs there is better targets to train into the floor other than the hunter.
Yes, youâre right. I donât understand how someone can use their own experience in irrelevant solo content (where you already say you played both melee and ranged) as a counter-argument to the point that Hunters were not a viable melee class in Vanilla and therefore should not have a melee-only spec 6 expansions later. The logic, if there is any, eludes me.
Try getting better reading comprehension. Iâm not asking for proof about how you played in Vanilla. I know itâs hard to grasp, but I donât care how you played in Vanilla. What I care about is whether there was any practical situation where a Hunter would deliberately run into melee, denying themselves the ranged toolkit. Because due to the revisionism and dishonesty of melee Survival proponents since the Legion reveal plenty of people now believe that was the case when it flat-out wasnât.
So many things wrong with this part.
No, itâs not back. Survival right now is the 2nd furthest iteration from its Vanilla iteration, second only to Legion Survival. You even said you played both melee and ranged, and you CANNOT play ranged right now as Survival. Survival never lacked a ranged weapon before Legion. Drill that fact into your mind before you make ridiculous claims about current SV being faithful to the Vanilla version.
SV is far, far from a popular spec. What a ridiculous lie. This spec has almost everything stacked in its favour right now and is still in the dumps in representation. At this point there is really not much they can do to boost SVâs adoption in the class without tuning it to ridiculously OP levels while nerfing the other specs to hell, even moreso than the current state. Getting people to play Survival is like pulling teeth for Blizzard. When Survival had a DPS advantage when it was ranged (e.g. Dragon Soul, Highmaul) it would easily be one of the most played specs in the game, if not 1st place.
Acting like this spec is safe is premature to say the least. The spec just went through another major overhaul a few months ago in 8.0, after the remake in 7.0. We are still in a state of flux for Survival. Melee is especially at risk because a) as I detailed earlier, itâs still an unpopular spec, b) a lot of the people playing it are praising the ranged mechanics (and, as we see on this forum, asking for more ranged mechanics), and c) theyâve left the spec with hardly any actual melee mechanics left and an identity that is not only independent from but contradictory to melee gameplay.
I donât want to hear âitâs been too long since ranged Survivalâ. Itâs been three years. Even though SV was never actually melee the revisionist âVanilla meleeâ stuff was 12 years before they made Survival melee. If ranged Survival wasnât safe after being a stable, popular, and established ranged spec for the better part of a decade, you better believe melee Survival isnât after 3 years of being the circus freak of class design.
Unproven nonsense. While itâs difficult to get a full picture of the old forum discussions now, Google searching with custom time ranges shows that it was not a popular sentiment. Why would people want to forego the most iconic element of the Hunter class? Iâm sure a few did, but it was about the same level of support as people who want a Hunter tank i.e. not much at all.
âIt was fun to arbitrarily not use my ranged toolkit on a ranged class sometimes in Vanilla, so I really think one Hunter spec should be exclusively melee with no choice 12 years later at the expense of a popular ranged specâ.
Self-absorbed and ridiculous.
11 Likes
See here you go again. You force a person to explain their vanilla experience. Then you pounce on them within walls of text which in the end amount to you calling them selfish When in fact it is you that is the selfish one. I have watched you do this on several occasions to several hunters with similar experiences as mine. Yet you STILL refuse to admit that what we did was PLAYING the game. I subbed just like you subbed.
Your elitist attitude does nothing but poison many forum conversations because it results to this. you forcing a player down a path where they explain what was the basic wow experience for a lot of folks. vanilla didnât have all group related helpers to allow normal people to get into group content. So we did when we could and spent our time (money spent just like you) messing around with the different talent trees or leveling other guys (leveling actually took time back then).
Just because you pushed content doesnât make your vote anymore more then one dude. And obviously itâs a minority vote or the SV class wouldnât still be here in this form.
you tell me that my enjoyment in getting what Iâve waited 12 years for. Fighting besides my pet. is an unworthy reason for having this spec. when youâve had range SV for all of wow. Seriously who is the selfish one? Think about that
5 Likes
if you are not a hunter go away. you are invalid here .
Ok relatively new to hunters, of his Iâve had one on past but never stuck with them very long. This time plan to. So I see there seems to be three types of pets. Ferocity, tenacity, and cunning. At least all I can find so far. Is one any better than other in PVE as I donât do PVP. Too many twinks. What is best pet. I am using the default pet right now, but tamed a fox and bear. Keep in mind PVP story line is about all I mess with.
I read a lot of older post syaing turtle is best but found couple others saying they changed pets completely an all the Sr do I have no idea whatâs really the case.
Thanks
Everything I said in my post is true. Hunters were the last class implemented. People asked for a melee version in beta. I know this because I was there. You dont like it thatâs fine. But I and others do.
4 Likes
All of you talking about lore and all of this are stupid. BM has always been a whatever spec, why as a HUNTER would you essentially only use pets to do damage? Marksman is called MARKSMAN, think of any other game, whether FPS or otherwise where they state a class/player is a Marksman, and are a SNIPER. Yes MM is terribly clunky, I feel as if it flowed better in Legion at least (not comparing to vanilla because itâs been 13 years) and needs to be fixed, but it still is a sniper-esque spec. You guys want to bring up old crap from over 10 years ago that fits your case, but fail to mention that hunters used to use MANA and had to use a bag slot for a quicker/ammo box. Do you want any of that back? Didnât think so. The game has changed. SV was garbage for expansions prior to the changing of melee, but even some hunters use spears to attack, not to mention the aspect of the eagle that letâs you range your mongoose bite for a bit. Yes itâs melee, but would any of you play SV even if it wasnât? BM has always been about that, beasts. MM is a sniper, and SV has almost always been an awkward in between. You guys are complaining just to complain, black arrow, aspect of the viper, explosive shot, and so many more werenât that great to begin with. Hunter was the first class I made in this game and one Iâve tontinued to come back to, but BM has always been the âuse pets and EZ modeâ for the spec, MM seemed to be the higher skill cap/more gear reliant spec which was its downfall in comparison to BM, and nobody played SV, it was confusing and a mess of a specialization.
TL:DR- MM is a sniper class but needs some major flow changes, BM is EZ mode and where we got the label huntard, SV has always been a mess. Youâd be complaining about SVâs lack of ingenuity as ranged too if it wasnât melee spec, so donât play it if you want ranged. ALSO with your guysâ garbage logic, BM can be compared to Demo warlock now if you want to compare SV to outlaw/rogue class. Hunter isnât the only class in ruins right now, ENH shammies just got the middle finger for 8.1 patch fixes and everyoneâs upset about everything
What game have you been playing? First of all BM currently has the hardest rotation of the three (not saying much but it is). SV has not always been a mess. It was a very solid ranged dot base spec with amazing sustained damage which A LOT of people enjoyed.
Yes MM needs changes. Still. Itâs too much of a turret for how low of damage it puts out. And its not tanky enough to just stand still.
BM needs minor tweaks and it would be fine. Not even dps changes. Glyph of mend pet, a good gap opener, possibly kill shot, a knock back that actually works, better pet pathing and AI are just a few to name. There is a HUGE issue with ranged hunters ability to kite. Currently if i conc shot someone and there is a snare on me, melee is ABSOLUTELY able to close the gap easily. Iâve had aspect of the cheetah up WITH conc shot on target AND disengage posthaste and a snare is applied and completely negates ALL of my speed boost and my 50% snare does NOTHING to maintain the gap.
4 Likes