Crusade VS Inquisition

PVP Arenas
1

For any of the competitive rets/more skilled pvpers out there. Why aren’t we running Crusade?

I know the guaranteed crit of AW is great, though it does require proper set up (inq and making sure to judge post ES). Plus, 12 seconds on mini wings seems so much better. I play cupid pretty much exclusively (usually in the scrubby duelist range…with a priest cuz we don’t FOTM well) and having access to wings for a majority of each go seems better. Our terrible uptime in most situations makes me feel like we are wasting inquisitions value. All the top tier rets are still running Inq though so wondering if anyone has extensively tested crusade or we really do rely on that big crit for gibs /pressure at higher rating

2

It needs ramp up time to be effective, your windows for uptime are limited due to the big CC sign on your back. It could be a better option in 8.2 as our uptime should increase a decent amount. I’ll probably still not take it though.

I bounce back and forth with DP and inquisition. I think DP has better potential for burst into wings if you line it up with 5 HP. And if you get a Empyrean proc it’s almost too many gcds to squeeze into a HOJ window. I’ve done the above setup and proc DP twice In the HOJ window. Four to five TV’s delete people from the game.

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3

for me, I like using inquisition because it feels like I do damage outside of wings, whenever I used crusade we’d get trinket/void/sac/etc and that just negated the CD and since wings =/= void, trinket, sac(iirc?) its hard to want to use it

just my two cents though :slight_smile:

if you play ret hunter I think crusade is still the best option unless you’re facing stuff that is going to kite you a lot

4

Gotcha, def makes sense. What comps are you queueing with? Also, is the WoG a PVE thing or should I be running that too? Always happy and grateful to hear high rated ret opinions :smiley:

Sadly yes, we pmuch never kill anything outside of CC windows, even when I did run Inq, though I def have room to improve there. Really fun qing into lock/shaman with imp and grounding, or ya know RP walking towards the mages :unamused: Looking forward to undispellable freedom and maybe finally getting glad before it gets nerfed lol

5

I mostly play ret destro, I think ret/caster is far superior compared to ret/hunter. I was going WoG for wwdk because they kill my lock with dam and i go too oom with fol spam and I’m not spamming TVs anyways. (WoG is still insanely nerfed in pvp but can save someone from dying)

6

I just like the single giant instant crit templar’s verdict.

Inq + full power regular wings makes it hit really hard

If you take crusade then you pretty much forgo it. I don’t really like ramp up time either.

7

Ah okay, the big heal can def save the day. Haha agreed. Wish I had a destro or Spriest friend lol. Most of them want ww/dk/dh or another caster. Love the way cupid plays (plus I have good/cool partners) but so underpowered right now. Feels bad when we lose to all these bermuda triangle comps, even when they overlap everything and we pull off multiple clean set ups.

Did a handful of yolo games with some LFG randos last season around 2100 with destro and had some hilariously easy wins when they went me instead of lock.

8

Crusade requires uptime and has to ramp up. Inquisition allows you to have the full burst of regular wings, plus the guaranteed crit TV (not insignificant), exactly when you need it.

9

Their both good, this is looking at all Ret’s above 2400+ on EU & NA. It has both Crusade and Inquisition at nearly the same % of usage, it just comes down to preference and your confidence in using wings when you know you can get uptime.

https://www.thelootdistrict.com/pvphub/talents/paladin/retribution/?rating=2400&bracket=3v3

Personally I don’t like maintainence buffs and I like having 30 second wings and 12 second short wings. There is some ramp-up time sure, but it’s really only a few globals and the burst for that period is much higher IMO then Inquisition.

10

Both Crusade and Inquistion suffer from a lack of uptime, a lot more than Divine Purpose does. If you can guarantee that you can connect, you could use either of the three talents, but if you have issues connecting to your target, DP is generally the best talent.

Remember that Inquisition costs you a Templar’s Verdict to use. To make up for the damage loss you spent to give you the buff, you need to be consistently on your target, maximizing that extra 7% damage/haste.

And Crusade is an overall damage nerf across the board from the other talents, except during Avenging Wrath. So you have to really make sure you can maximize that 30 second window. So if you get kited and/or CC’d during wings, you are consistently doing significantly less damage than you could be.

Divine Purpose doesn’t suffer either of these issues, as it doesn’t cost you anything to get the benefit from DP, and instead just purely adds damage, regardless of your uptime.

I personally run DP because of this, as well as because it also adds burst damage on a proc. If you get a few DP procs at any point during a match, it can be a bit of scary damage. And especially scary during wings.

I also prefer Avenging Wrath over Crusade, as well, because of the other bonuses it gives, increased healing and the guaranteed Crit.

Also, Hammer of Reckoning with Avenging Wrath is almost always better than Hammer of Reckoning with Crusade. While HoR with Crusade does last twice as long, it starts off at 1 stacks, so you’re not really getting the full benefit that you could be from it. Whereas HoR with AW gives you an immediate 50k+ chunk of health, as well as the extra damage from Inq and/or a DP proc, as well as everything else it gives.

Personally, I recommend trying Divine Purpose, (with Righteous Verdict, of course, as well), and giving it a shot. It sometimes sucks to have to rely on RNG for damage, but I tend to find myself doing more damage all the time, even with minimal procs, than I do with either Crusade or Inquisition, just because there isn’t as many drawbacks to being kited and peeled. I don’t have to sacrifice a TV just to give myself a little buff, and I don’t have to sacrifice consistent damage to get an all-in burst.

11

Great points. I think you’re right about mini wings getting the crit and full damage immediately overriding the increased duration. Maybe with the exception of double melee or immobile casters/teams that can’t peel. That being said, def wanna try giving DP a shot. Saving a proc and getting multiple TVs in a short window could def make a difference since we are trying to land kills in setups for cupid

What comp are your running/did you get up to glad with? Also, I see a few high rated people here not running sanc, I would assume that is solely comp based as I always thought it was one of best things we bring to the team.

Edit: also nice to hear your input on overall damage. Always hard for me to gauge which of those talents is getting me more damage since uptime and flow of matches is so dynamic and not something we can just parse out lol

13

You should be actively changing which one you used based on what comp your running and or what comp your fighting. For example when fighting Destro locks I tend to run crusade as your best shot at killing them is in burst goes. Since your most likely pillaring inbetween goes. For say Hpals I run inquisition as you want sustained goes because you wanna have consistent pressure. I can explain in more detail in game or via my stream https://www.twitch.tv/judgejudyx

Both can work in both situations but It’s more about min maxing. A very basic explanation is for consistent sustain pressure I favor inquisition. For burst goes I run crusade. Also while you can use DP its the least ideal/useful one. I would never run DP as the other 2 are far superior. If you get god rng its ok but same can be said for all other builds and without the rng it just doesnt compare. Someone in the thread mentioned your wasting a TV to put up inquisition but thats just not really how it works. Your giving up 3 holy power yes to buff your sustain/pressure massively. Also since you have less uptime refreshing it when your unable to TV is ideal and actually is a massive benefeit. You can win with it its just your gimping yourself.

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14

I’ve been running Ret/Arms/Rdruid. We almost always out-damage our opposing melee teams, and for casters, like Destro, we just tunnel them into the ground, and save mobility for when we need to line, (Infernal, Darksoul, etc.) We also focus on hard stopping just Chaosbolts or Gpyros. Even if we need to use Stormbolt or HoJ to prevent the cast. Basically never use our kicks for anything else, except for specific situations… I.E. RoF on our healer.

I always use Sanc in Arena. I swap out of it when I stop queuing, but it’s pretty invaluable. If you were to not use it, I would recommend taking Divine Punisher instead, unless you really need the slow, in which case Law and Order. Unbound Freedom may also be a huge talent next patch, especially for when you are running melee cleaves.

And yeah, consistent damage is also very important. You most likely won’t land kills outside of Avenging Wrath/Hammer of Reckoning, but you can potentially force a CD or by doing hard pressure outside of those windows. Ret is very bursty, but a lot of defensives line up with Wings, so you need to be able to put in decent pressure outside of wings too, or you’ll have issues landing kills.

15

divine punishes actually never worth taking. Lawbringer is the best sustain talent by far. And Reckoning is the best for consistent burst goes. Divine punisher is just really weak in comparison. Id run 3 non damage talents before ever running that. As ranged hoj,slow, Sanc are all more valuable then Divine punisher. It’s just gimping yourself. Which again this season you can gimp yourself and win as its just all pve gear/brainless. But if your looking for optimal then I wouldn’t run that. Esp next season as hopefully the pve gear will no longer be used. As far as the freedom talent you get it for free so no need to spec it next patch.

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16

Just started pushing my ret in 3s. Is it better to BoP Maledict or Vengeance Shield it?

17

I thought this was gonna be a thread about Crusader fighting some other paladin called Inquisition lmao XD

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18

Yeah, my “standard” build is jurisdiction, sanc, reck because hunter is BM so gotta land stun for traps. I sometimes run lawbringer against non purge teams when I can reliably land hoj. Hoping undispellable freedom will pretty much eliminate the need for long hoj except maybe against shaman.

@Jawah: do you think ret/arms is the best melee cleave? Considered trying out vanguards since DK kinda covers our caster weakness but running with war seems fun too. Our melee cleave game def gonna be insane come 8.2

19

Make FDK/Ret great again 8.2.

20

Here’s to another great season of no voice 30 second rush the healer every game to glad protpal/ret/dk cleave. /toast

21

Iv qued ret war to 2700 multiple seasons and above 2400 this season, And Its def one of our best melee comps. But Ret sub is actually our best melee comp surprisingly. Id say Ret survival and ret war are pretty equal after that.

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