Crowd Sourcing Your Thoughts

Hello, I’m looking for all positive arguments about Calia Menathil. I’m planning on doing a monthly event that’s a soapbox speech in her favor.

Ideally I’m looking for everything from a Forsaken or other undead perspective, because it is critical to any oppositional argument which might arise at one of these gatherings. However, even if your pro-Calia perspective is from a living character, i’ll take it too.

Hail the Pallid lady, for the Forsaken!


I’m a Scarlet roleplayer.

I have words for Calia, but they wouldn’t be kind.


Some thoughts from the pen of Sarestha Ravelle, Paladin of Forsaken Lordaeron (Self proclaimed - that’s not a real title Sarestha XD)

Lady Calia is a free willed undead, and thus, always has a place among us. There are some who wish to deny her that, because the method of her resurrection was unorthodox, or because of her brother’s atrocities, but this is inappropriate. By dint of being free-willed undead, and from Lordaeron, she is one of us.

The Pallid Lady represents, in the eyes of many, old Lordaeron; a return to the values that we held in life. I have long advocated for similar. Our past is not something to be ashamed of, nor something to run from simply because those fools in the Alliance claim it as their own. No! We are the Forsaken. We have, in many ways, evolved and grown beyond our humble origins, and yet to detach entirely from our past is to capitulate to the forces who seek to deny us our legitimacy. We ARE the legitimate inheritors of the Kingdom of Lordaeron. Our nation is the truest remnant of that once-great nation, cruelly snatched from us by the hands of fate. To advocate for aspects of those values to be emulated in our lives today, to lend a voice to our glorious and storied heritage, is not a weakness. It is not wrong. Rather it is but another way the Forsaken hold fast to who we are, and stand defiantly in the faces of all those who would dismiss us as monsters. By pointing to our heritage - pointing, not enforcing, Lady Calia uplifts and strengthens us all.

Furthermore, it is clear that Lady Calia has a heart for our people. She has given much for us. While some would point to her Alliance sympathies with not-invalid concern, I would still point out that she chose to live amongst us, as did Archbishop Faol, and the War Hero Derek Proudmoore. Unlike most of us, forsaken and reviled since the moment we rose from the grave, they had the choice to remain with the haughty humans, but they chose us. And since doing so, Lady Calia has contributed greatly to prosperity for our people. It was she who coordinated efforts, not through use of authority but through diplomacy and collegiality, to cleanse the blight from our glorious Capital City, and return it into our hands. She has also stood bravely with us against the Scarlet Crusade, and others. And despite some degree of a legitimate claim to a vacant throne, Lady Calia has never sought to elevate herself above her fellows, serving as one of five on the New Desolate Council. She is a servant-leader, putting her people first above all else, and, even as her own beliefs remain strong, she has never sought to suppress the unique character of our people. She understands and respects the ideological diversity inherent in the Desolate Council, and thus in the Forsaken as a whole. She values us, and puts us first.

Does this mean there are no concerns? Of course not. Her ties to the Alliance and willingness to put our people at risk to fight someone else’s war in Gilneas ought to be protested. We must make our voices heard that we are Forsaken, we are a part of the Horde, and no matter how much she may wish it, there is too much water to ever pass fully beneath that particular bridge. But does this invalidate Lady Calia’s presence on the Council, and presence amongst the Forsaken? Of course not. She is one of us, who has laboured on our behalf, and it makes us look weak to be so fearful of a figure who has only ever helped and supported us.

None could ever replace our Dark Lady, our Banshee Queen, and the sting of that betrayal will haunt us evermore, unto our return to the grave. But Lady Calia does not seek to replace the Dark Lady. She knows she cannot, and she does not need to. Along with the rest of the Desolate Council, she represents but an aspect of who the Forsaken are. The Forsaken are a diverse and tenacious people, who are stronger when standing together. Let us cease this bickering in a vain and fruitless effort to replace the Dark Lady, and remind ourselves that despite enduring the greatest of betrayals, first by Arthas Menethil, and then by our own beloved Queen, we are still the Forsaken! Let us stand, and proudly proclaim that there is strength in our diversity! Let us remember that we are the Forsaken! We are still here! And we will slaughter any who stand in our way!


Oh hey a former coworker, how are you? Haven’t seen any of you guys since I died just before the Death Knight starting experience. Did you know the Forsaken are the true continuation of Lordaeron? :stuck_out_tongue:


Calia Menethil is a weak, impotent ruler incapable of change and an utter obstacle to her peoples’ happiness. She is a fitting punishment for the daring and active Forsaken. The price they pay for their years of war is to watch their once-distinct identity slowly scrubbed clean until they are just one more facet of light-loving, peace-abiding humanity, bereft of conflict, character or ambition.

Truly, she is the most poetic of leaders.


I hope your future is peaceful and unfulfilling, and everything you once knew of Lordaeron’s blue banners and marble walls is soon forgotten due to your mindrot and you have nothing but the memories of victorian black steel and alchemy.

I personally hope the Scarlet Crusade ends up balkanizing Tirisfal so you have the permanent reminder of what made Lordaeron the backbone of the Kingdoms fighting its spiritual and literal decay.

Perhaps you should lead the Calia party. I’ll hold the soapbox for you and hold back the mob for your escape.


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Sarestha was a big fan. She’s a proponent of “Old Lordaeronian” values, and considers herself a Light-worshipper and ‘Paladin’ despite the fact that she’s obviously a Death Knight.

But then Calia helped reconquer Gilneas and she’s like " :scream: don’t help the Alliance until they at LEAST give us back Southshore." (Apparently resettled by the Alliance as of the Exploring Eastern Kingdoms book)

Basically Sara’s morality is a big conflict of Light vs extreme Nationalism, which I have fun with.

But she still thinks it’s dumb to hate Calia as a general rule.


I’ll give you an IC and an OOC perspective.

First, IC. My character Kirsy has a background in military/para-military, and she also sees things in black and white, not shades of gray, so I’ll state that up front. She’s likely to fault anyone in authority who doesn’t put the good of the people before themselves. She’s also known to be a big supporter of the Forsaken.

Her opinion of Calia is that she is a weak leader and the only reason she is in the position she is has to do with her family name, not talent or abilities. It’s well known that Calia was not supposed to be ruler, so her father did nothing to prepare her for leadership. She wasn’t trained or given the same opportunities as her brother, which was both a failing for Terenas in being short sighted (there was no “spare” to Arthas’ heir) and in Calia for not demanding, herself, that she be trained in case that something happened to her brother. Granted, she was a teen at the time, but Kirsy wouldn’t see it like that. She would think that Calia was raised as a noble and as such, there would be a responsibility to the people.

Instead, Calia was shown in her youth as not caring for/fighting actively against a political alliance with Alterac/Daval Prestor. She impulsively fell in love with a footman, got married and hid it - not representative of someone who would be putting her kingdom ahead of her personal wants. Kirsy would even postulate that Calia searched out the most unappealing type of person (to her family) to start a relationship with because she was selfish and rebellious. She was also so wrapped up in her rebellion that she didn’t notice that her father was being controlled by Deathwing.

Kirsy would believe that when Calia became pregnant, hid it and then decided that her husband would raise their daughter away from Lordaeron, that it was another selfish, impulsive act made by a naive noble. She wanted the child to be legitimate, but not in line for the throne (a carbon copy of herself - making her egotistical and borderline narcissistic). She wanted the child to be acknowledged after Arthas had an heir, and her footman-husband to be given a title of nobility instead of accepting him as a normal citizen. It would make her look shallow and entitled to Kirsy. Calia wanted her non-noble husband to be brought up to her level, instead of being willing to step down to his. Is that love? Not to Kirsy.

At some point after Arthas murders their father, Calia is separated from her husband and child. Calia is rescued. She prays for her family, perhaps searches, but eventually stops trying to locate them. Her family could still be alive, and Calia wouldn’t know because she didn’t care enough to dedicate her life to finding out. Her family could be Scourge, and Calia could be letting them lead that horrible existence because she stopped.

Instead, Calia becomes a priest and hides herself in the Netherlight Temple, claiming to have no desire to lead. Later, she impulsively breaks her word to Anduin that she would not do anything that could endanger the Gathering. Knowing that the Gathering was the first tentative and very precarious step in a possible peace between the Forsaken and the Alliance, and knowing that she hasn’t been trained as a diplomat or emissary, she attends in secret, anyway. Her very presence is a bad idea, but then she turns it into a bloodbath by revealing herself and calling the Forsaken to follow her. The choice is more narcissism from Kirsy’s POV. If Calia would have cared for the Forsaken, she would have followed orders and not shown up at all, or at the very least, not called for them to rally to the Alliance, knowing that Sylvanas was watching and how it would look. In Kirsy’s opinion, she deserved to be struck down because her short sightedness killed innocent Forsaken.

It’s a further insult to the Forsaken that the Alliance takes Calia’s body and raises her in the Light. She’s not Forsaken. She hasn’t suffered in the same way a Forsaken truly has. She doesn’t have the same appearance of rot and decay. She doesn’t even try to adjust her appearance to fit in. She just glows until someone hands her a new, noble consort in Derek Proudmoore, and seemingly the memory of her non-noble husband and daughter is completely gone. She inserts herself into the Horde, gives herself a title “The Pallid Lady” to put herself on a similar level to Sylvanas, and then becomes the token Alliance undead on the Desolate Council, something Kirsy feels she hasn’t earned.


Now for the OOC and it’s a little far-fetched/conspiracy theory, loosely based on a D&D game I was running where Calia was the Lich Queen:

Calia was written as the little sister/afterthought member of the Menethil family and given a very brief history that was never truly fleshed out in its origins. Blizz has never gone into depth about Calia, and they tend to portray her character as appearing emotional and impulsive, but well-meaning. She’s not shown as conniving…or is she?

Calia was raised to be a daughter who’d be married off in a political alliance, and her father was later known to be controlled by Deathwing. We have no indication that Calia was ever influenced by Deathwing, except for the existence of a single coin that can be fished up, (Princess Calia Menethil’s Copper Coin: I hope that handsome nobleman Lord Prestor notices me! He’s so dreamy!). While this is probably just a continuity error, it’s also possible that it’s not. It’s possible that she was controlled for a time as well (or else why the saying on the coin?) and that her mind had been twisted enough that she could be of two personalities: one is that of the old Calia - the girl who doesn’t want to lead, and the other who may have once been controlled and changed on a fundamental level by having Deathwing in her thoughts, and has recently managed to insert herself at the highest levels of Horde and Alliance leadership not unlike the Prestor family did at one time.

Most of what Calia says early on is that she has no interest in being a leader. She says it a lot - almost to the point that the lady doth protest too much. And then, this is where it gets interesting: In a conversation with Anduin just prior to the Gathering, she asks him if he would be willing to aid her in reclaiming her throne (from Before the Storm). If she has no interest in being a leader, why would she ask this? Why would she refer to herself as “queen of Lordaeron” if she wasn’t trying for her birthright. She is shown as a character in conflict, having no desire to lead, but also a desire to reclaim her throne. Which is it? Is it both?

Moving on, to the Gathering. Calia’s actions were that of someone who thought she was a leader. A follower would not have thrown off the disguise she supposedly donned in order to search for her family. Suppose her family had been at the Gathering? She could have been responsible for having them be killed. Does that mean she doesn’t really care about them? She certainly could have asked Anduin for assistance in finding them. Instead, the question she asks him is if he would help her reclaim her throne. The implication here is that her desire to lead outweighs her desire to safely find her family in the crowd, or those who might know them if they aren’t present.

Calia is raised by the Light, but we can postulate that the Light is not always good and a Naaru is willing to manipulate beings to do as it sees fit (see: I AM my scars!). Does being raised by the Light automatically make Calia a being of good? Of course not. But from this point forward, we see Calia being placed into leadership over and over again. A player could surmise that this is OOCly because Blizz needed recognizable name characters for interest, but our characters might wonder why the light-raised undead was being put into a position of power over the Forsaken. Is it because of lingering influence of either Deathwing, or the naaru, or both? She’s first an advisor, then part of the Desolate Council, and then is making decisions about Gilneas that may not be in Forsaken’s best interest.

She gives away Gilneas. Certainly, the Forsaken and the Horde could have put down the Scarlets by themselves. They didn’t need the help of the Alliance and they didn’t need to hand Gilneas back to the Greymanes…but she does…and this despite Mia Greymane saying to her father that Calia is not "just some mindless Scourge.” The comment implies that the Greymanes still feel animosity toward the Forsaken and Calia literally does nothing but give her word “as a Menethil” that they want to return Gilneas. Somewhere in her thoughts, Calia believes that her Menethil name should mean something, or she wouldn’t have stated it this way. And giving her word to someone “as a Menethil” would be enough to cause many Forsaken to give her the side-eye. She does it, anyway, and without apology.

While we’re talking about Gilneas, there’s a point in one of the questlines where our characters are told to report to “Queen Calia.” First, she’s “Just Calia,” then she’s renamed herself the Pallid Lady. And then she’s referred to as queen (though this is later retconned).

Calia’s slow-burn rise to power could be seen by some Forsaken as another weak-willed Menethil whose mind could have been invaded by Deathwing, leaving it open for the Light to follow suit - and all Forsaken know that the Light physically burns them, so is a being of Light necessarily to be trusted? Calia has a valid claim to the throne, but it’s clear she could become a Lich Queen of a different sort if her tendencies to either waffle on decisions or outright lie are being caused by an outside influence. She can’t be trusted, and neither can the Light. She is deceptive, whether she’s aware of it or not.

And finally, if the naaru can bring people back to life, why isn’t this a normal thing now? Why is Calia the only one? Is it because she’s easily influenced and the naaru were aware of this prior to her death? Is she being used as a pawn, similar to how Genn may think Turalyon can’t be trusted to know where Anduin may be? He trusts Calia, but that could be because he doesn’t know she’s possibly being influenced - just that she’s been raised.


What does she think of Calia’s actions since joining the Council? In one sense she’s done a lot of good work for the Forsaken since then, with some nuance (the Gilneas situation for instance). But Calia did, to some extent, spearhead the reclamation of the “Overcity”

Also this post in general is fascinating, genuinely some interesting conclusions. I’m here for Calia as a master manipulator lol

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Thinking on this part, actually… Luckily for my unlife I’m an Aussie with weird RP hours but hey, hope you have fun with the event. Feel free to include my IC thoughts! xD


Your post is a speech all of it’s own. I’m wondering about maybe keeping it as a wise tome from which to read from.

Like it has many quotable parts in it, in particular when a person has an objection. Tas could emote opening the book and reading from the page whenever he needs a quick eloquent response. IDK

Did I just write the Calia Menethil Apologetics Bible?

The Dark Lady would roll in her grave (i.e. community service in hell I guess) if she knew what had become of me xD


Family names can be a sort of title. Whether given or earned, a title indicates a distinction which helps identifies a person as being more than common. Talant, she may lack, but ability she has. Even though it’s something that she only recently obtained, she can do things most other Forsaken can’t.

Hardly the first royal to be selfish, but in this matter of the heart, everyone is selfish when true love is within reach.

A true deceiver would go unnoticed by everyone, no matter how close they were. As a king, aren’t the children more distant from the father than a peasant man would be to his kids?


We don’t know if forced to choose, whether she would step down to his lower level. But, don’t we wish to see the ones we love succeed and if we have the means, raise them higher?

Imagine you are a human with no combat training, no resources, no help, and the place you would need to be in was hostile to all life. She did what she could and doing more would have lead to her own demise. Powerful as that might be in the name of love, it would also mean no one is left to keep their memory alive.

you weren’t there, all hearsay.

Not all Forsaken had suffer the same degree. Those raised after the Val’kyr came back with Sylvanas hadn’t suffered as the first generation had.

Please leave your fantasy dreams out of this.

non of the other members earned there positions either, they just showed up. But, that is a conversation for a different time.

(really though, this was good info to give me a sort of prep work for better rebuttals if simular ones arise at the events.)

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While it can be entertaining to fantasize of fantastical plots of political intrigue. We need to realize this is the same team that authored Shadowlands.

We are never going to get anything nearly as engaging as the Von Carsteins, and for the most part all story writing tends to be trending towards noblebright.

I genuinely hate being a pessimist on this point.
But the proof of everything i’m saying lies in the absolute underutilization of Azshara, who has been the prime candidate of being a villain of political intrigue for decades and has been completely underutilized.

The scarlet crusade is going to continue to be lobotomized, the living remnants of Lordaeron will be written out of history, and undeath in WoW will just become another disability instead of anything of actual depth and note for storytelling beyond even the fundamental mysticism of what it means to be undead.


I mean agreed and I share your frustrations, especially with the recent treatment of the Scarlet Crusade, bereft of all nuance that once made them interesting.

But at the same time… this is a thread about RP viewpoints, opinions, in preparation for an event. Creativity is the lifeblood of RP, and if we let bad writing destroy our own creativity within the framework of the universe we’re working within, then… what’s left for us to really cling to?

Creativity, especially in areas of lore theorycrafting like this, is a very good thing.


Kirsy’s already formed her opinion, so unless she sees proof positive that Calia isn’t acting for attention to satisfy her narcissistic tendencies, it won’t change. She’ll figure that Calia just craves attention like any spoiled noble and isn’t truly taking into account the needs of the Forsaken. She’s not over-happy about losing Gilneas after all the work that went into taking it in the first place, and that kind of cancels out anything done for reclamation.

I was having a “What if…” moment when I wrote the D&D campaign. It was born from the fact that they changed Calia’s appearance to…robust…in a way that Sylvanas and the dragon aspects don’t look elven or human. And she chose a title for herself. So I was seeing her as an anti-Sylvanas. Her history fit with the idea of a Lich Queen.


You know…there was a rumor started by the Scarlets that Calia’s husband and child (a son in the rumor) were actually Scarlets.