Crowd Sourcing Your Thoughts

Most of my living characters agree that Calia is the only good Forsaken, and it’s good that a faction that only mobilizes to commit atrocities and war crimes and genocide is being muzzled.

Hale doesn’t get involved in politics, but if Calia lets him continue his detective work, he’s fine. If it’s good optics for the people, he will have even more work. Sylvanas was a bad look, and he’s tired of having to apologize constantly for the actions of other Forsaken. Maybe Calia will help people forget the 300000 atrocities committed under Sylvanas’s rule. I lean towards “my Forsaken nationalist Dark Ranger is dead” because I honestly think her going against Sylvanas very early on should have had consequences. But if she were alive, she’s the sort that rebels the minute she thinks a leader is acting in self-interest and not the interest of the people. Her logic about the rebellion against Sylvanas wasn’t “night elves are people and don’t deserve to die,” it was “you really chose to gain ground in KALIMDOR and care about the disgusting ORCS having more land, and threw the Forsaken under the bus to do so?” So she might be dead soon anyway, because Gilneas will not gel well with her.

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I feel like everything keeps tying back to the Lich King because he was the last villain who wasn’t largely underwhelming.

I liked Garrosh, but I think a lot of people didn’t. Legion’s end boss was cool but I feel like Kil’jaeden and Gul’dan both had more clout. And then Azshara and the Old Gods were so underwhelming that they actually erased the clout they had.

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This is a part where I’d like to see them write more about. The Gilneas thing is a dividing issue for Forsaken and I think blizzard is just going to leave it as, “It was fine and no one cared.”
Both Calia enthusiasts and haters have Gilneas as a point on their respective sides.

I have hopes for Xal’atath because the player is sort of helping her along. I think a big part of Arthas is the fact that you play him up to the point of being the bad guy. This helps get you invested in his motivations as well as a strong remembrance to his character development.

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She isn’t Forsaken.

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What makes a Forsaken? The Cataclysm era Forsaken didn’t go through the same trials as the Classic-era ones, and the BFA-era Forsaken had completely different trials again. So it can’t be solely experiences.

Calia is literally a Forsaken, a leader at that, by dint of being what Forsaken are. Free-willed undead, affiliated with the Horde. Maybe once being hated a whole bunch by the living was a precondition of what they were, but that no longer seems to be the case (though I’d wager they’re still hated by a great many people xD)


Not the Light.


Maybe that’s where I’m the weirdo. I always wanted to see a minority of Forsaken still faithful to the old ways of Lordaeron, so a bit of Light is interesting. As long as it doesn’t snuff out the dark.


The shadow can only exist with the help of the light. Otherwise you are left with only the void.

Calia may not be of the shadow like we are, but her light might be the thing we need to see our kind thrive.

You open a letter that was sealed with a fancy letter ‘P’ and reads as follows

To those it may concern of the Forsaken in regards to Lady Calia Menathil, a Tushui perspective.

My job in the Alliance is a type of embassy, as Master Aysa Cloudsinger sees fit. We have long offered guidance and wisdom to our friends under the blue banner and I believe your people will find this beneficial. For my part, I have done my research and spoken with high regard of Lady Menathil which I will explain plainly with objections from positions to peace with the Horde and answers to these arguments I have given:

Objection: The Forsaken can not be trusted and has a dark reputation.
Answer: While I do not deny the history, there is much to be said about the treatment of free-willed Undead who felt they had no choice other than to join a war machine regime for survival. Might as well toss me in the stocks cause I would of done the same. The right thing to do now is to show them times have indeed changed since those early days of the Scurge or fear of it. Lady Calia Menathil understands this history well.

Objection: Nothing has changed and they are still a threat
Answer: Was Calia Menathil and Lilian Voss not helping directly to reclaim Gilnaes? This is more than a quarter of the Desolate Council. Who other than Lady Menathil proposed this idea to them in the first place hmm? To say nothing has changed would be to deny Gilnean flags fly over Gilneas once again.

Objection: Calia Menathil is the sister to Arthas the Lich King.
Answer: Family is very important to me but to say I am the same person as my mother or father is absurd. To expect such an extreme choice to be taken again from someone just on grounds that they are related has as much probability as the moon turning into another sun, just ain’t gonna happen.

Objection: Calia Menathil has little to no support among the Forsaken, they would rather Sylvanas return to lead them.
Answer?: This part I confess is hard for me so now I address you the reader. While it’s easy enough for me to tell them yall had no love for Lady Windrunner in the end for how she used you, claiming wide acceptance towards Calia policies of peace is another story. I hope to the high heavens this changes one day and more Forsaken take the time to think, reason, and come to the conclusion as I have that The Pallid Lady holds a mighty bright future for your people. Show them you are not monsters.

Mo Pawl of the Tushui

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Calia stinky

RP answer: My guy is dumb and doesn’t know who that is.

Real answer: Her introduction to the game was poorly executed, I have always disliked important moments like this being tucked away in supplemental media. Giving her a unique character model with big honkin gazoohungs isn’t gonna win me over. She seems even more redundant now that the Forsaken are lead by a council. I would have liked it if she remained alive and not a goofy wacky light undead but a minor living member of the council bridging the Forsaken to their lost humanity and Lordaeron identity.

This is pretty much my personal opinion as well. I was all for the idea of Calia being an eventual Sylvanas replacement until the writing made her…kinda dumb. Giving her the actions they did in the book was highly disappointing. And I feel her appearance is pretty cringe. It’s like they blew her up like a glowy balloon.

I appreciated that they made Calia emotional. That was good. But I’ve felt like they mishandled the character in so many ways, from her actions at the Gathering, her appearance, her being suddenly given a consort, to pushing her toward leadership. As an ambassador to the Alliance on behalf of the Forsaken, I understand why her actions are what they are, the long term goal being acceptance of the undead by the living. But the rest of it feels like weak writing.

Please Blizz, don’t make her Queen of Lordaeron.


OOC- I have read so many things over the years from people who do not like Calia and I really dont get it. I thought her introduction into the story and her placement of was absolutely perfect. Her motives, goals and everything else about the character lines up into something with more depth then we have seen in most. I also dont vibe with BfA villian batting Sylvanas as if any of that was out of character when we seen similar actions for years.

Calia is the best thing for Forsaken character development because shes the first to veiw them as nither monsters or arrows in a quiver.


It’s a great character for people who like the idea of undead characters but don’t want to commit to what the spirit of undeath really is about.

Some people seem to have high hopes that led to nothing interesting other than more ways to solve the story of the game without diluting the rest of the Forsaken as a race.

For example, without Calia it would’ve been out of character for Forsaken to give Gilneas back to the Alliance. It was a character that reflects the nature of the Author, not meant as a replacement for Sylvanas, but rather as a happier ending for a race, a city and a story that I personally disagree with, but fits the fans of other media - A happy ending for the Forsaken?

I guess that is the general idea of it. I don’t think it does an excellent job at it, but it’s latest story quests have eased the punch that it drives unto older, “better” lore imo


I can see that. A lot of Forsaken players - especially new ones - don’t want to be rotting or smell. They don’t want to play a character whose motto is “death to the living.” They’d like to have some positive emotions sometimes.

You can see all of that reflected in Calia.

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Speaking for myself (on an OOC level, not as Sarestha), I’ve been a Forsaken fan since Warcraft 3. I’ve realised part of the question when it comes to Forsaken themes is what’s the inspiration?

In my experience, I’d say the majority choose to play undead because of the Scourge-esque themes. A lot of people I’ve spoken to have echoed that. Not to say they’re playing AS Scourge because of course they’re not, but the themes like “Death to the living” as you said, Kirsy, alongside plagues, dark magic, abominations and all that genuinely fun stuff dominate the idea of what makes an undead cool and fun.

For me it was always the tragedy of the fall of Lordaeron that I found compelling, and the general narrative of people, once probably simple, innocent enough people, rendered monsters through no fault of their own, hunted on the basis of simply what they are. For that reason, while I sometimes defend Calia IC and to an extent OOC (in that I’d still see her as A (not THE) legitimate expression of the Forsaken), my favourite Forsaken leader and absolutely the candidate I’d nominate for Queen is Lillian Voss. There’s something fascinating to me about being forced to wrestle with what you have become in the wake of terrible tragedy, and find a new path forward, which itself can be a moral quagmire. I guess I like balancing the “undead” and the “human” elements and figuring out where you land in the moral quagmire. Compelling stuff.

I have met very, very few genuine Calia fans, in the sense that they think Calia is the absolute best thing to happen to the Forsaken. Again, my whole contention OOC is that I don’t -hate- Calia, so that leaves me playing devil’s advocate a lot and makes me seem like her fan. However, her introduction and frankly much of her subsequent quest content makes her seem like at best a lovey-dovey pacifist, at worst an Alliance spy, neither of which fills me with Forsaken pride, you know? But in the spirit of engaging with comments that seem to lean that way, like Mo’s, I’d say that the biggest Calia fans are:

  • the folks who don’t like the faction war, and really want to see everyone getting along.
  • Lordaeron fans in the strictest sense, who really see their Forsaken as simply some humans who came down with a case of death, rejecting any of the ‘forsaken’ and ‘monstrous’ elements of the Forsaken heritage.
  • Folks who find it strange that Lordaeron, a nation that was known for its piety, so completely abandoned the Light, and wish to see it restored to some extent.
  • People who would like to see “pretty” undead as a playable thing.

I’ve always viewed it pretty B&W.

Calia fans are The Cure fans who showed up to the party after “Friday, I’m in love” came out.

Not to say The Cure is bad after FIIL, I just remember how different the vibe was before.


I mean, there’s also the point that all free-willed Undead are welcome within the Forsaken, so long as they work to advance the Forsakens’ goals and avoid bringing undue harm to their people.

Calia is doing just that. She’s won over two of the members of the Desolate Council, and won the begrudging support of the other two, and actively and publicly refuses to take any sort of overt leadership role. She’s helped reverse the Banshee Queen’s defilement of Lordaeron, the one last thing the Forsaken could truly call theirs, now and forever, and has made huge sacrifices for them, both trying to reconnect them with their living families, a thing many Forsaken yearn for, if only to find closure and move on with their Unlives, and dying for it at the now-revealed malevolence of the Banshee Queen, and the massacre of the Old Desolate Council at the hands of the same Banshee Queen.

And while the loss of Gilneas is a blow to the Forsaken who lost friends during the campaign, who saw this as a totally justifiable war against the Gilneans for their King’s refusal to aid his old allies and allowing thousands, if not more, to die pinned between his ‘Great Wall’ and the Scourge army that was not even shot at once by the defenders on that great wall, the Forsaken cannot hold Gilneas, especially not with such horrendous losses during the War of Thorns, and the loss of all the Val’kyr, meaning no new Forsaken brought into Unlife and no old Forsaken revived. It was a cunning tactical ploy that both divorced the Forsaken from the conflict as much as possible, and showed they had no interest in continuing a ‘needless’ conflict, averting or diverting the Alliance’s wrath by conveniently shoveling all the blame onto the shoulders of the former Warchiefs, Garrosh and Sylvanas.

In-Universe, I don’t think Calia, or Cauliflower as I like to call her to stir people up, is a massively-beloved figure amongst the Forsaken. Respected, yes. Thought fondly of, as the sole surviving Menethil and the Heir to the Throne who refused it for the sake of love, when she was alive, and again in Undeath despite still working on behalf of the Forsaken. Her status as a Light-raised Undead will certainly raise eyebrows, and ire, as many Forsaken felt the Light ‘betrayed’ them when it abandoned them to the Scourge, and then despite many attempts to be ‘resurrected’ as one of the Living, it never worked. The Holy Light scorned them and burns their bodies, despite their faith, their devotion and all their belief, and then it turns around and raises an Undead, and she’s whole, and pure, and almost Human, while they are shambling, slowly decaying mockeries of everything they once were.

She’s a breath of fresh air to the Forsaken, and a harbringer of change and invigoration to their people, and I am eagerly looking forwards to the drama and intrigue she brings to them in the expansions to come.


Voss is one, who is the other? Apothecary?

The acting leader of the Dark Rangers, Dark Ranger Velonara, seemed quite approving of Calia’s stance and willingness to put herself in harm’s way for the Forsaken, and was the one who mentioned that the Dark Rangers should be viewed with suspicion as well, given their close ties and fanatical loyalty to their Banshee Queen.

Some might also ask if the Dark Rangers are to be trusted, as well. We were Sylvanas’ closest cohorts, and even we were left behind.

I have declared my allegiance to the Forsaken. Calia should be given the opportunity to prove the same.

Farnell seems to be tolerant of her, so long as Calia doesn’t interfere in the Apothecaries’ experiments and ‘research’, and Belmont seems to be willing to keep her around as a shield against future Alliance interventions and shenanigans, but he’s also made it clear he does not trust her, and holds both her lineage, as a Menethil and a Light-raised Undead, against her, and considers her a step removed from the ‘real’ Forsaken as a result.

And considering that, sooner or later, we’re going to get Forsaken Paladins and Druids, eventually, this might end up being what Belmont fears the most …

Forsaken, driven mad by the Light, or worse yet, puppeted by it, just like Arthas Menethil and the Scourge did …


I would be so here for that!!

Awesome summary in general btw, I concur wholeheartedly.