Yeah, but you specifically quoted me. My issue with your list has been specifically about the night elves.
Hrm? Oh I only quoted you because I was responding to you in this discussion. Wasn’t actively pointing towards the thing that you said in the argument. Sorry for not making that clear.
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Questionable, we don’t know the actual layout of laws governing the Alliance military.
Though it seemed more of a philosophical question than a by the books question.
Safe to assume that it worked like most Militarys. Not like there was a chain of command beyond Garithos even if there were. And His men followed him unquestioningly as well to the point even Kassan put his loyalty to Garithos and the Kirin Tor before their friendship.
Military law varies quite a bit, both now and over history. Still seemed more philosophical than pedantic legality.
Just a chain of command over him elsewhere. He was merely the strength in the region.
Actually, no. There was no Chain of Command over him. All communication south of Ironforge was broken and Garithos claimed sole leadership of the Remnants of Lordaeron’s Army. There was no Alliance government left, with only what was left of the former forces trying to collaborate in maintaining a sense of order.
We’ve had confirmation of the remaining chain of command.
Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron’s government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies.
It existed, he was merely not in contact with it. Daelin Proudmoore was still alive. Varian Wrynn was alive and in Stormwind. Gelbin and Magni were alive. The Alliance government was still there, just weakened and in disarray.
Being cut off from it still means there was no chain of command. A Broken Chain isn’t a Chain.
As far as he (and Ironforge and Quel’thalas) knew, he was the only surviving leadership of Lordaeron.
I mean, you literally just quoted it and you’re arguing against it.
Yes it does, just that it isn’t connected.
Yes it is, you have two shorter parts of a chain.
We’re not talking about what he knew, we’re talking about what was.
You can’t understand something as simple as a chain…
Alot of these arguments against the Alliance fall pretty flat when compared against what the Horde and the races comprising it have done.
Even the few things the Alliance could be claimed as guilty for the Horde generally have a hand in as well. Yet horde players need to argue these events to try paint the Alliance as monsters because without that they have to accept they are playing the villains for a faction that shouldn’t exist.
Sadly it just comes down to the fact that the writers cannot write the Horde as anything but proactive bad guys. While at the same time the Alliance as reactive good guys. This stems from two issues firstly the writers like the Alliance being the Morally upstanding and good guy factions and like writing the characters on the Alliance like that. Two blizzard is too scared of the backlash from some of the Alliance player base if they made them do anything deemed to be evil.
The only way to resolve this is blizzard getting a writer who can not only enjoys writing the Horde and understands what the Horde player base wants and who isn’t scared to go against what the rest of the blizzard writers want.
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For Which Garithos was the head of. You’ve just circled back around and proved my point (and proved yourself Wrong.)
A Chain of Command doesn’t exist if you don’t know that it does. It’s literally how one works.
?? I’m the only one of us who does!
A Link removed from a Chain is not a part of that chain.
No, he was not the head of the Alliance. Other actual rulers were above him. Their power wasn’t gone just because he was cut off from them. You’re confusing cut off from contact and ceasing to exist.
Yes it does. A soldier lost in the wild still has a chain of command, he just can’t access it.
A soldier out in the wild is still under the command of a captain even unable to contact him. The chain still exists.
Didn’t say he was.
But he was the head of the Military and of all those who followed him.
Actually, no. Because Lordaeron was the head of the Alliance and Garithos was the defacto Leader of Lordaeron and it’s military. In the end, he was their Equals.
But he WAS the Leader of the Alliance Resistance (to which Ironforge and Quel’Thalas recognised), until it was decided otherwise which would of required an intact chain of command to relieve him of that.
So coming back around to the point at hand, he had complete and total authority.
No. YOU’RE confusing me saying cut off from contact as “ceasing to exist.”
That’s YOUR misinterpretation.
You’re conflating Communication within the Hierarchy with military ranks. Communication is mandatory for a Chain of Command to function.
No. He has his orders that were still in effect and his duty to follow them. Without a Superior or Subordinate, there is no chain of command.
On the other hand, a Platoon of soldiers behind enemy lines, cut off from Chain of Command, still follow procedure and carry out their duty but for all intents and purposes, the Commander is the end of that chain as long as the Communication is cut, and makes decisions as the sole Commander, even as to whether keep fight or surrender.
(The cases of Shoichi Yokoi, Hiroo Onoda, and Teruo Nakamura are, not perfect but still interesting cases of this. Hiroo Onoda even enlisted 3 other soldiers under him and would not surrender until his commanding officer relieved him. Not even the Japanese government could convince him the war was over.)
So you agree he wasn’t head of the Alliance. Thank you.
Incorrect. A warlord is not equal to the royalty in this national alliance. And it was unclear who was the next in command of Lordaeron.
You literally said ‘a chain of command doesn’t exist if you don’t know that it does’. You can take it back if you want.
A chain of command still exists regardless of the communication.
The definition of a chain of command is an official hierarchy of authority that dictates who is in charge of whom and of whom permission must be asked.
This is not gone when communication lapses. The hierarchy remains. Which were the established heads of the Alliance nations.
The superior still exists. Hence the chain of command exists.
Never said otherwise. I said he was the Leader of the Lordaeron Military and RECOGNIZED as the head of the Alliance. Just not ALL nations of the Alliance.
Warlord, yes but also sole leader of Lordaeron by virtue of there being no other leadership. Also, you’re arguing a double standard. Either he was the Military Commander with all the authority of the Alliance chain of command or his was a Warlord and not acting under the command of the Alliance.
Nothing to take back because it doesn’t.
Without communication (or the agreement to that authority), it doesn’t have any power.
They were the heads of their own nations. Not of Lordaeron. The Fact that none of these other nations took command and that the Alliance was all but dissolved means that hierarchy was non-existent and even Ironforge and Quel’thalas still recognized Garithos as Leader of Lordaeron (You even quoted that.)
And there was no Superior over Garithos. The Chain of Command was Broken.
King Terenas was the Leader of the Alliance and Garithos’ last Immediate superior. You could argue that Calia was still his superior, if anyone knew she was still alive. But no one else was.
As long as we agree he was not head of the Alliance. Which you’ve said you aren’t claiming several times now.
These are not inconsistent. The fact he was recognized as a military commander does not make him an equal or his authority boundless.
So I misinterpreted nothing. Because that’s specifically saying ‘a chain of command doesn’t exist without knowledge of it’. The knowledge doesn’t make it not exist.
It exists all the same and is enforced the same, through force or threat of force. It functions worse until communication is re-established, but it still exists.
And the Alliance was a group of nations, not just one. The individual is responsible to the collective. Hence why they punished Alterac for betraying them.
No it doesn’t, the hierarchy remained. As noted, it was a chaotic situation.
As a ‘possible’ remnant. As I noted, it was unclear who was next in command for anyone.
Yes there was. The heads of the other nations. Garithos was not head of the Alliance. The other royal leaders of nations were above him.
Never said it was “boundless” either. But he was representing the last of the Government of Lordaeron and as such had that authority.
No, that’s LITERALLY you misinterpreting it.
I mean, is English not your native language? I don’t know how to translate this for you.
Not knowing your orders, or if there even ARE orders, means the Chain of Command is broken. Communication is what has “ceased to exist.” It’s required for accountability.
No, it doesn’t function AT ALL, because even Force or Threat of Force still requires communication.
The Alliance of Lordaeron wasn’t that Unified. They were 7 Human nations plus the Dwarves and the High Elves. They Collaborated with other but they were not like the Alliance today.
5 of those 7 nations were destroyed or withdrew from the Alliance, Stormwind still rebuilding from the second war and Kul Tiras was chasing the Horde in Kalimdor. The Hierarchy ceased to exist as it once was.
Because there wasn’t one.
No one was “above him.” All the leaders in charge were dead.
IF communication resumed and IF the Alliance still existed even after losing 5 out of 7 founding nations, they would of had to decide who would pick up where Terenas fell but they didn’t even KNOW the fate of Lordaeron. And even this, Garithos would of had a seat at the table, as sole leader of Lordaeron, unless the other Members refused to recognize him as such, which they had no cause or knowledge of otherwise.
You missed Stormwind’s refusal to pay the the stonemason’s guild for their work and the Dwarves targeting of Ice Troll whelps.
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Which had limits.
‘Chain of command’ = ‘chain of command’.
‘Doesn’t exist’ = ‘cease to exist’.
There’s nothing to misinterpret unless you used words you didn’t mean to.
You didn’t say ‘communication doesn’t exist without knowledge of it’.
Yes it does, it functions in respect to the actors still at play.
Alterac was specifically punished for acting against the wishes of the other nations.
Stormwind was rebuilt at that point. Kul Tiras was still part of the Alliance regardless of their actions. Ironforge and Gnomergan were both members as well. Chaotic but remaining.
No, because it was unclear who survived.
Numerous other leaders were alive.
I am too, honstely and disgusted especially by you actually.
But I have said why allready severall times. You lack logic, ampathy and basic understanding of morality.
Typical horde apologist to cope withthe cognitive dissonance caused by the fact you identify and support a faction that has been portraited as mass murderers basicaly throughout 95% of WoW history.
And these attempts to victim blame and shifting repsonsibilities is just repulsive.
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